Ok, so this isnt ~just~ about the center channel, but thats what I was thinking of when I started writing the post...

I'm getting closer to actually making a purchase. Christmas Bonus actually arrives in February for me and I'm trying to figure out plans.

I've figured out what I'm getting if Bonus sucks.
I've figured out what I'm getting if Bonus blows my mind.

Where I'm having issues is the middle ground so I'm asking for your opinions here. Given my low-end and high-end below, which componants would you guys upgrade if you could only choose one? How about two?

Suck Bonus:
- Denon 1709 (80W / ch)
- M2s
- VP100
- QS4
- Outlaw LFM-1 Compact

Mind Bending Bonus
- Denon 2309 (100W / ch)
- M22s
- VP150
- QS8s
- Outlaw LFM 1 EX

My room is approximately 10x20x9, but the listening area is about half that at approx 10x10x9

Opinions appreciated
snazzed

I would take the M22 over the M2s. The M22 are really, really good. I would actually take 2xM22s before 2xM2+VP100 (using a phantom channel) until I could afford the center later on.
That was my 2 cents!

I'll second that.

Middle Ground Bonus
- Denon 890 (105W / ch)I'm assuming your stuck on Denon, but consider Pioneer and Onkyo as they have some real value recievers, this coming from a Yamaha guy
- M22s
- VP100
- QS4s

No matter what you have, go with the M22's. Find the money or wait but I think you'll really appreciate you did. I'm just finishing up on my friends install and he has the M22, VP150, QS8's, EP350.

My opinion on his room which is larger that yours is the following:

M22 - Absolutely the right choice bar none. (Actually, I'm barring floor standers)
VP150 - Overkill. Nice, but the VP100 would have been enough.
QS8 - Great surround. I've never heard the QS4's, but I'm going to guess the extra for the M22 is better spent than 4's to 8's
EPS350 - Great value for this sub. I'm surprised it doesn't get talked about more. You should consider it.

First, I would go with 22's regardless, as the others say. I would also at a minimum go with a Denon 1910/790, or 2310/890 if possible. I would put as much money into a good receiver that will last you say 5 - 7 years. I say this because there is not much point in stretching big time on the speakers and going with a cheaper receiver, because Axioms upgrade program is excellent and you will lose a lot less upgrading speakers than the receiver in say, a year or two.

Then, upgrade the sub

Next, upgrade the center

Lastly, the surrounds

I don't know how many would agree with me, but the Pioneer Elite VSX-21TXH (the cheapest of the Elites) IMO, seems to be an excellent receiver for the 8 ohm loads. I have excellent sound coming from my M22's with this receiver. Although I paid $630 from a Best Buy store, I know you can get it a lot cheaper online.

Just my 3 cents worth (due to inflation).

Another vote for the M22's. I'd also opt for the QS8's over the 4's due to their higher power handling and slightly better range.

I would go Denon 2809(refurb - ecost), M22s, VP100, QS4s(prefer 8s but either one works great) and the Outlaw. I am recommending the higher end receiver due to amp preouts in the event you ever want to get M80s and/or want to try seperate amps, upgradeitis being as catchy as it is. The sonic difference between the VP150 and VP100 is very little and cost wise it is not really worth the difference in small to medium size rooms, IMO.

Any way I am sure you see the pattern, get the M22s, they are worth the money spent over any other speaker in your system. I would get 3 for LCR if you can run a vertical center

I'm not stuck on Denon, but I do have a strong preference. I know where to get their B-Stock (which is why I'm looking at a 2009 Model) which is a great price and includes Warranty. If anyone can tell me where to get Pioneer or Onkyo B-Stock, official with Warranty, not Grey Market, I would certainly be interested!

I'll wait for more comments before I respond on Speakers.

Thanks!
snazzed

http://accessories4less.com

The Pioneer Elite VSX-21TXH does have pre-outs. See the manual, Page 30.

Great... now I have more options to consider!

snazzed

Sorry...

I don't really think in terms of quality among Onkyo/Yamaha/Denon/Pioneer/HK etc you are really going to notice a big difference. It just seems whatever offers the best options for you and whatever you can get the best deal on is the way to go. If you can get a fully warrantied new old stock Denon for a great price I don't know why you would keep looking elsewhere, as long as it does everything you need/want it to do.

Byron, we're all hoping that your Christmas bonus will be a good one, but regardless of that I'll join those who suggest that you get the M22s in any case. You might consider Eric's suggestion that you could temporarily skip a separate center speaker and let the M22s "phantom" the center channel(which they do an excellent job of).

Also, don't worry too much about small differences in maximum power ratings on the receivers(you specifically listed the numbers); get a receiver with the features that you want at a price that fits your budget. Don't hesitate to consider a factory refurb at lower cost. My experience and general view is that they're likely to be even more reliable than a brand new unit.

You know, I really appreciate the people here. This is, by far, the most well spoken and knowlegable group of people I deal with on the Internet.

So I'll definetly include the M22s regardless of the size of the Bonus. The difference is only $150-ish in the Outlet.

Suck Bonus:
- Denon 689/1709 (3x HDMI Input)
- M22s
- VP100
- QS4s
- Sub: skip until/unless I can afford an Outlaw LFM-1 Plus/EX

Middle of the Road
- Denon 689/1709 (3x HDMI Input)
- M22s
- VP100
- QS4s (QS8s if possible)
- Sub: Outlaw LFM-1 Plus


Mind Bending Bonus
- Denon 2809/989 (Pre-Amp Outs)
- M22s
- VP150
- QS8s
- Outlaw LFM 1 EX

Thanks a ton. Especially those who mentioned the PreOuts on the Amp... which I thought the Denon 2309 had. You made me take a second look and realise it does not!

@JohnK: Yeah, I realise that in a room this size the smallest Denon will likely do. I've removed the Power Ratings and replaced them with my actual reason for selection

Re Sub: I've limited my sub choices to Outlaw's 12" Driver Models, eliminating the 10" model from my "budget" line-up. I know someone recommended the Axiom EP350 but Outlaw has a very good name in subs and their B-Stock is even cheaper than Axioms Outlet.

Now... Lets just hope Bonuses this year aren't CRAPTACULAR making my selection, "wait until next year"

Thanks again
snazzed

Those are some nice choices. Have you considered the eD subs ? They have a couple within your budget and they too have had really good reviews. The price also includes shipping.

I would recommend getting the sub over the surround speakers in all scenarios as it will make the most impact and add the most to your music and movie experience; you can add the surrounds at anytime

I was considering ED for a while, but the finish wasn't all that nice. WAF wouldn't be good.

Went with HSU.

The stock finish on the eD subs are the same as the earlier Hsu subs. I have an older VTF 2 and the it isn't at all bad looking.

In some of the pictures I saw, the finish looked inconsistent and sloppy.

Could you have been looking at one of the home-built kits by ED?

Way too much discussion about "E.D." in here

I guess I'll see in a few weeks. I ordered an A3-300 this afternoon. I figured I have mention them enough that I might as well take my own advice. I'm selling in my Hsu VTF2 and this will be its replacement.

E.D. phode 'ome!

I don't have any "new" opinion, but generally agree with what others - especially Jakewash - said.

Get the M22's.

I'd get the sub before the surrounds if you have to choose.

I think the VP100 is plenty.

I don't know what you're spending on the receiver. Check refurbs at http://www.shoponkyo.com. They have the TX-SR707 and TX-SR806 for $599 at the moment and I don't think you pay either tax or shipping. Satisfied customer.

Dr. Hsu helped design the initial Outlaw subs, but I don't know if that collaboration continued into the new lines. Consider the Hsu STF-2 ($349!) or VTF-2 also. I wouldn't hesitate to get a sub from Elemental Designs; they are developing an excellent reputation, and have been continuously upgrading their products and processes.

Enjoy the journey!

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the eD sub Rick. I have wanted to order one ever since I started my sub searching but the costs and hassle to import them uphere prevented me from picking one up, it was so much easier to go through a dealer up here for the SVS. I am now wanting to order one of Ed's DIY sub Kits

Huh. So the consensus I'm getting is this...

UltraSuck or NoBonus:
- Denon 689/1709 (3x HDMI Input)
- M22s
- center: later
- Surrounds: later
- Sub: Outlaw LFM-1 Plus

QuasiSuck
- Denon 689/1709 (3x HDMI Input)
- M22s
- VP100
- QS4s
- Sub: Outlaw LFM-1 Plus

Middle of the road... option time!
- Denon 689/1709 (3x HDMI Input)
- M22s
- VP100
- QS4s (QS8s if possible)
- Sub: Outlaw LFM-1 Plus

Mind Bending Bonus
- Denon 2809/989 (Pre-Amp Outs)
- M22s
- VP150
- QS8s
- Outlaw LFM 1 EX

If you go to Denon.com, they list their resellers, including the B-Stock outlet. (I won't mention them by name for fear of getting "No advertising on the board!"). They have pretty much every Denon AVR sold in the last 5 years or more:
- 689/1709 for $190 (USD)
- 989/2809 for $530 (USD)

Looking at the UltraSuck option, it seems I'll likely be able to do that regardless of Bonus especially if I'm willing to look at a 10" Sub. Anyone want to offer opinions on 10s? Right now I'm thinking I'll go straight to the 12" for the extra LFE.

Thanks
snazzed

M22s, M22s, M22s and M22s! That sounds about right!
For the rest, your budget progression is quite alright and should make you very happy.

For HT use you are definately better off sticking with a 12" sub IMO.

I really like "QuasiSuck" and "UltraSuck" as categories. I'm totally stealing the SuckScale from you. I don't know when I'll use it, but I'll use it.

Lookin' good. You'll be happy.

10" sub = music only

12" sub - Music/HT

I have found 10" subs lack the air movement needed for a good HT experience. A 10" sub is of course better than no sub but for me, a 12" sub just works that much better. You get deeper lower LFE which is what you want for HT. A 12" sub loses nothing for music and you get all the gains of the lower end play back .

Likewise, much amused by "quasiSuck" and "ultraSuck" terms. Will be adding those to my vocabulary, if for no other reason than to appear cool with the younger folk.

Cheers,

let's not forget Homer's profound observational skills using the word suck.

"They just plain sucked! I've seen teams suck before, but they were the suckiest bunch of sucks that ever sucked!"

Ah... all right, let me dig this up from the ol' memory banks.
There was a chant we used to use at the Cal Hockey games,went something like this:

Hey Goalie (usually)! Your mom called! She said you suck! (1st time) Suuuuuck! Suuuuuck!
...She said you're a vacuum cleaner! (2nd time) Vaaaaaaaaacuuuum cleaner! Vaaaaaaacuuum cleaner!
... something something
...something something
...She said you're a black hole! Blaaaaaack hole! Blaaaaack hole!


Yeah, Cal fans are nasty bastards.

... suck
... vacuum
... sieve
... black hole

'sieve' just sounded dumb to me.

It didn't go with the rest...


But let's face it. The whole thing was stupid!

Well, Hockey in California is kind of a stretch altogether.

Still, when we were at Cal, our hockey team was pretty highly ranked, at least in the Pac-10. Not quite as good as our rugby team... but way better than basketball and football.

At least Ken's brought the thread back on topic now......football......receivers

Carry on.....

Just received the eD sub and the finish is on par with the Hsu subs. Here it is next to the Hsu STF3.

That's pretty and all, but how does it make you feel? Has it punched you in the gut yet?

I've only listened to some music so far but it kicks pretty good. I'll watch a movie (9) tonight to see how well it does.

Rick, I look forward to reading your review!

I am by far not a reviewer. I will give a few short notes though.

Very cool, Rick. I'm interested in your non-review comments.

I knew I felt a disturbance in the Force. You'd better be careful using such powerful lingo before you're trained properly, medic8r wannabe.

Rick, looking forward to your feedback on that sub rocking IL.

Ok, so I got my write up today and I know what my Bonus will be... Financial Industry is not so hot right now. Oh well.

Mains:       M22s
Rcvr:         Denon 1709
Centre:      later
Surrounds: later
Sub:           I could, but I'll practice some restraint. Pay off the MasterCard, keep the bank account padded. You know... smart stuff.

Now...

Black? Cherry?
Black. Cherry.
Cherry! Black!
Mansfield Beach?

argh
snazzed



Oh, one other question. When the Factory Outlet says "4 weeks" is that "estimated until they ship" or "estimated to your door"? And how tight are those? Could it be 6 weeks, "hey, 4 was an estimate. It took longer"?

Thanks again
snazzed

Hi snazzed,

The factory outlet estimate until shipping is never longer than estimated and sometimes shorter.

Shipping to your door varies by region--Northeast, including Ontario and Quebec in Canada, 1 or 2 days; midwest US, 3 days; southwest and west coast, about 5 days. We are talking business days.

Alan

I have the Boston Cherry, but only because Axiom was not yet offering the Mansfield Beech.

Yeah,

Cherry: I like the look. Doesn't match my furniture in that room

Black. Matches anything. Easy to ignore in a semi-darkenedroom. Kinda plain.

Mansfield Beech: Matches the furniture, but I don't like that wood tone.

Leaning toward black... but its kinda plain!



Alan: Thanks for the info on the Factory Outlet question.

snazzed

Mansfield beech is actually a very nice finish. My QS4s are in that. I don't like the black much, but I don't like any black oak much.

Thats it... ordered. No more screwing around.

I was delayed when I ran across the Custom Vinyl section... LOVE the High Gloss Burled Walnut, by the way. Ran it by the wife and she said "I don't like the dark spots." So I showed her the High Gloss Cherry... "You want your speakers to look like wood?"

What!? How can she even ask that!

She said Black or Brushed Aluminum because thats the finish most TVs come in. No vision, that woman. We settled on Black.


Now... up to 5 weeks wait... ergh. Alan, if there is anything you can do to expedite order 9862739 it would be appreciated

Kidding!

Sorta.

snazzed

Well... yes?

cool...hope the wait doesn't kill ya!

I saw both the burled walnut and hg cherry next to their real counterparts when I visited the factory. They are stunning in person. I also ended up with black 'cause it fits in with most anything (didn't have the extra cash for HG).

I wish they'd get a HG Black Vinyl. That's basically what the base of my TV stand is. I'm sure it isn't as impressive as multiple coats of a hand polished finish; I'm also sure the price wouldn't be as impressive either.

Chris, it would be an idea to mention that in the suggestions thread(if you didn't already).

Exactly! I was stunned. "You want your speakers to look like wood?" ?!?!?!?! It took me a couple of seconds to come up with a response and it was almost exactly that! I believe I actually said, "<pause> Uh... yeah."

Black, or Brushed Aluminum. Pssssh!

Tell ya one thing, though. If we ever win the Lottery and buy a house in which I can make a "Dedicated Home Theatre" I'm going to design the room and decor around the High Gloss Burled Walnut finish!

snazzed

I have HG Burled Walnut on my Audiobytes. I don't know that I'd want it on anything larger than bookshelf speakers; it is gorgeous, but a bit busy.