Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo CD FACTOR afterword: Import cd's

In this country, awash with "imported products" I find it kind of "ironic", that ONE of the few products that I WANT to buy made elswhere, is the "import cd".
I have found over the years, that they usually are "better" than most domestic releases. Even with the internet, they are often elusive, and only a "smattering" of them are in local record stores most of the time, and Like our domestic cd's, quickly going in and out of print.
For some reason, the imports are almost always a more "deluxe" package.(even import compilations are more "interesting").
Many have:
Bonus tracks, (even years ago), picture discs, sometimes un-released tracks, booklets with more photos, annotation, and more copious notes.
I have a fair amount of them in my collection, and I find another ironic point being their "high prices".(Import products are supposed to be less expensive right)?
In sharp contrast, are the domestic cd's, many are, and were "budget" releases.(with the exception of the more recent re-masters).
I just wanted to tie up some loose ends I didn't put in the other posts.

One other thing, I just got a cd (made in england) the other day, and in it's booklet it said: "mastered at 48 bit rate, for superior sound"............ is this new, or a typo?.......anyone?

It can definitely be mastered at 48-bit, but it will just be put on the CD at the standard Redbook (IEC 60908) HD-CD 16-bit/44.1 kHz PCM. HDCD is a technology that Microsoft has rights to that allows for 20 bits and full backward compatibility with standard CD-DA format. I highly doubt that this is a HDCD though, as they aren't too popular. (I've only seen one in my life.)

The studios use higher bit rates and sampling rates to increase sound quality (or at least that's the plan). The reason for over sampling (which I assume they probably do to 96 or 192 kHz) is to prevent aliasing near the top end of the CD's bandwidth (~22.05 kHz by Nyquist Theorem). This is generally combined with some kind of dithering and noise shaping. That is also done on the decoding end. The bit rate in mastering would have a much less marked effect than over sampling, and some would argue that the only thing noticeable would be that they spent more time and care mastering that particular selection. It's what is known as a "confounding (or lurking) variable" in statistics since changing one (the bit rate or sampling rate during mastering) will usually change the other (the care spent in mastering the CD).

where'd you copy and paste that from?

I will take that as a compliment, as I didn't copy / paste from anywhere other than MS Word for spelling mistakes. (I can NEVER spell "definitely" correctly. It's just one of those words for me...)

compliment given, then. College must be good for something, eh?

DJ,

Do you have any thoughts on upsampling.I have a MSB Link Dac III and was considering a upsample card for it.I'm not quite sure what the advantages or disadvantages would be.

Heh I guess it must be, although neither what I study (Systems Neuroscience) nor what I do at work (MRI processing for research projects) has almost nothing to do with technology.

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DJ,

Do you have any thoughts on upsampling.I have a MSB Link Dac III and was considering a upsample card for it.I'm not quite sure what the advantages or disadvantages would be.

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I think that for the most part up-sampling will give you limited noticeable results, if any. As I kind of touched on earlier, the type of dithering (soft ATH noise shaping seems to be many people's favorite) will make a bigger impact on sound quality. I am unfamiliar with your DAC, but looking on google, its stats are fairly impressive. It already supports 24 bit and 96 kHz, and Stereophile loved it. I highly doubt the upgrade to 192 kHz would make any noticeable difference, although I don't doubt that an upgrade has the potential to change the sound. I just think that it would be something else about the upgrade that would potentially change it, not the up-sampling itself. I would spend my money elsewhere if it were my hardware.

Edit: I forgot to say that up-sampling in no way will increase the sound quality to a level that is attainable through a higher resolution audio format such as DVD-A or SACD. While in the end, the output may be as highly sampled, it is still just interpolation.

By the way, what kind of hardware are you running with that nice DAC?

DJ, Thanks for your input.

I have a Rotel RB1080 amp/RotelRc1070 pre/Outlaw Icbm/Sony C222es 5 disc changer the dac of course.Speakers are Axiom M80's and dual Hsu Vtf-2"s

Wow - that is definitely a monster system (especially that RB1080). I noticed that your CD player also handles SACD. I've been wanting to do the upgrade to a high-res audio format for a while. What are your experiences wtih it? Have you compared any SACDs to Redbook CDs of the same album yet? I wonder, though, if that would be a fair test, as the quality gain could be just extra care during the mastering process

I do have Stevie Ray Vaughn Texas Flood in both formats.Using the Link dac as opposed to the Sonys dac I don't hear a major improvement to warrant any more puschases of the new format.

The simple explanation you could use is akin to "garbage in, garbage out".
A 16 bit mastered cd cannot become a 24 bit cd simple by using upsampling on a unit. Where did the unit get the other 8 bits of info?
As DJ said, interpolation.

Nicely written paragraph though.

Well, this one got covered before Mr. Digital Audio even got to it *laughs*

The only thing I'd add is HDCD is sounding it's death rattle... I have an HDCD compliant CDP (HK FL-8550) and besides accidentally being tripped by "phantom" HD code on one non-HDCD (Fat Wreck Chords 3 - Physical Fatness), I've never seen an HDCD.

Bren R.

Maybe it was because it had too much "pysical fatness" - heh. OK no more humor attempts here... What did it sound like when it was decoding the "HDCD?" Did it sound weird similar to what happens when you try to use Dolby Pro Logic on music (weird artifacts that don't sound like they were intended)?

Thank you for the informatiom,...................... I was starting to wonder if this thing was on.

The cd is just a regular," hard to find import "(from the infamous Best buy). The cd was Jimi Hendrix: '66-'70 studio out-takes, and the 48 bit disc. sounds good ........considering the poor, "bootleg" type masters.

HDCDs are popular in asia(Hong Kong). Check ebay for HDCD and you'll find quite a few titles cheap ($2-8), new from Hong Kong if you want to try them.

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What did it sound like when it was decoding the "HDCD?"

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No different, the only thing it does is clicks as the relay cuts the decoder in and out... especially during track 1 - "Olive Me" - NOFX's punk cover of the standard popularized by Ol' Blue Eyes "All of Me." Cycles the relay a dozen or so times.

Bren R.

That would make sense md55.. The friend of mine who had the HDCD that I saw was born in China, and he frequently visits and brings back misc. items.

Check the disc or the back of the cd case. A lot of them are HDCD but they don't advertise it in big letters cause it is now old technology. Joni Mitchell's cds were "rereleased" as hdcd, and a lot of other cds. Pet Sounds by the Beach Boys sounded pretty darn good on HDCD.

See http://www.hdcd.com/music_catalog/welcome.asp

John Mellencamp, Joni Mitchell, Brian Wilson, Grateful Dead, Fleetwood Mac, Eric Clapton, Carly Simon, Bryan Ferry, Buffalo Springfield, Bruce Springsteen, King Crimson, Neil Young, Roxy Music, Talking Heads, The Cars, etc.

http://www.hdcd.com/music_catalog/music.asp?action=style&musictype=8&submit=1

Hope I understood the point correctly - maybe this is useless info. When I was in China they put HDCD in big letters on the front of the cd if it had it. Not here in America, though.

Tool's "Lateralus" album is a HDCD. I don't have a HDCD player, but it is one of my better sounding CDs.

There's an HDCD of Alan Parson's "I Robot" which sounds awesome on my system. I swear that with this CD I get a full 180 degrees of soundstage. I've had to get up and verify that nothing was coming from my rear surrounds. I would get more of them in a heartbeat if they were available.

Mark

I have to give an absolutely unbiased opinion as to how good HDCDs sound... I just realized one of the albums I've been giving a fair listen to lately "The Rocky Horror Punk Rock Show" - punk covers of the entire RHPS soundtrack is an HDCD.

Goes to show how good the technology is, I didn't notice at all in the few dozen listens... looked over to grab and pack a tota-clamp this afternoon and lo and behold, the HDCD light is on.

Bren R.

You pro-audio/video geeks have your own vocabulary. Tota-clamp? I had to look that one up.

Does tota just mean portable?

Nah, just a trade name. Has a Lowel stud on it instead of a threaded rod.

I'm up at 7:30... the world just feels wrong at this time of the morning.

Bren R.

7:30 is early for you??

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7:30 is early for you??

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To get up? Yes.
To go to bed. No.

Bren R.

I hate you.

As do i...