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#222327 - 09/23/08 10:12 PM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: woofersus]
HomeDad Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 3301
Loc: Central,California
 Quote:
Had it for 5 years now and love it and the upgrade is cheaper than selling it and buying a better speaker;


To some extent I would agree with this, if the Ninja's product does indeed improve on the speakers enough to overide the cost of replacement speakers it may be well worth it for someone who wants more, but the M22's are right for their setup. But again until there is some type of comparison, review or testing on the M22's with the crossover installed that shows dramatic improvement, it's all a moot point.
_________________________
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.

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#222329 - 09/23/08 10:27 PM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: HomeDad]
SRoode Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/20/08
Posts: 1200
Loc: Fishers, Indiana, USA
To me, Ninja lost all credibility when he basically said on the AVS board "look at what's going on over here on the Axiom board".

Not a scientific approach, and this is from the supposed engineer who designed the product.

Any interest I had on this product is gone.
_________________________
2 M80s, 1 VP180, 4 QS8s, 2 EP800s, 4 Algonquins, 2 M3 VaSSallos

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#222336 - 09/23/08 10:50 PM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: jakewash]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3881
Loc: Up yonder
 Originally Posted By: jakewash
 Originally Posted By: mdrew
If I were to buy a set of these and request they be sent to Axiom, would anyone be interested in a “used” set after Ian was done playing with them?

Not to worry Mike, I already have a set being made, unless Sean decides you guys have pretty much ruined any hope of a future sale, in which case he might just drop Axiom from his line up.

Sean was good to his word in that he would send them for an audition free of charge to any forum member, that would be me, as I apparently contacted him first and I also have 2 other sets of M22s offered up by the other members here in Calgary to use as controls. I suspect all of your banter has made him have second thoughts on even pusuing Axiom as a client. He has not received this type of scrutiny from the many forum members at av123, granted they know him better than we do, but still he designed a crossover for their much loved Rockets and Ref 1's and they have more or less embraced the chance of a new sound from their much loved speakers. I can see where some will like the sound and others won't, but until any of us get a chance to hear some of the new crossovers we should be reserving judgement.


I agree that Sean took some crap here and I was personally embarrassed to read some of it, but you have to admit that this OEM timing issue muddied the water a bit. In retrospect, I should have refrained from saying anything as my comments did nothing but add fuel to a smoldering fire. It looks like I need to make another apology…..I should really just keep my trap shut.

My offer to buy a set was / is genuine. I would love to hear what the results are in a controlled environment. I’m not interested in anything but that to eliminate the emotional responses. It would just be nice to recoup some of the cost as I seriously doubt testing and shipping these things back and forth can be done within the 30 day window and I’d be out the $300 bucks or so. I am also still interested in a different crossover for my M80’s.

I really don’t understand why there is any debate at all that the Ninja crossover will not make a difference is sound. I have no doubt it will, and it will most likely be an undeniable difference. Whether it is better or not will be a personal choice.
_________________________


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#222343 - 09/23/08 11:32 PM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: michael_d]
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4800
Loc: western canada
 Originally Posted By: mdrew

I really don’t understand why there is any debate at all that the Ninja crossover will not make a difference is sound. I have no doubt it will, and it will most likely be an undeniable difference. Whether it is better or not will be a personal choice.

Indeed mdrew which is why i continue to question the use of the word UPGRADE.
The word is used even before anyone buys the product.
Some are sold on the concept before they hear it while others are skeptical right off the bat.

If someone does a test, only a blind, instantaneously switched and level matched setup will be worth its salt.
_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

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#222346 - 09/23/08 11:47 PM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: chesseroo]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7032
Loc: Canada
Folks, there is a simple way to settle this without a zillion more posts. Pony up a few $ so we as a group can buy a set of crossovers and send them to Ian.

at $30 it only takes 10 people to make it happen. Heck, thats not even a full Monster Cable! ;\)

Who else is willing to step up?
_________________________
Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#222360 - 09/24/08 07:34 AM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: fredk]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10848
Loc: Central NH
 Originally Posted By: mdrew
I really don’t understand why there is any debate at all that the Ninja crossover will not make a difference is sound. I have no doubt it will, and it will most likely be an undeniable difference. Whether it is better or not will be a personal choice.


I agree with Mike here.

I don't really think there's any question that the mod will make an M22 sound different. We can debate whether or not "higher end" crossover components make a difference, but certainly the changed crossover point will.

I think the waters have been muddied between those discussing whether or not the mods are legit, and whether or not the OP should be getting "bashed".

My concerns were the methods of introduction.

Someone new shows up and says "Hey, this new thing is great! Let me give you a link to the website!". Then the person who markets the new thing immediately shows up. He starts posting and then[i] asks "Hey Ian, can I post?". Of course, with the spotlight on the Axiom folks, could they really say "we prefer that you didn't as we have rules against selling and marketing here"? THEY would have come off as the bad guys. From the outside, it appears the same as [i]other times when someone new shows up extolling something, followed closely and coincidentally by a rep for the company.

Then, though the OP was a moderator in the past, he lists his e-mail address in the thread.... which any moderator knows would normally only be done in a PM. His posts always contain his website info…just in case you're interested. He offers, in essence, a "free trial" for public comparison, but then backs out of the comparison part.

I'm not saying he's a creep or a troll. My guess is that he's a nice guy offering a legit service, but my radar flashed warnings of being scammed or "sold" in a subtle way because of all the "coincidences".

And no, I don't think we were mean. We have a nice community here and someone came in who was (appearing to be) a little slick. Despite the few that are crying "foul" and that we never accept dissenting opinions, I think we as a forum are VERY accepting of other opinions of speaker and equipment preference.

But, we also look out for each other. I think we, as a forum, have a right to cast a wary eye on the whole thing and police ourselves a bit.

This forum does NOT simply exist in free space. It is hosted, paid for, and moderated by a company. That we have amazing flexibility in discussing competitors' products favorably is TRULY the indication of Ian and Amies' generosity, openness and non-competitive nature. I've been on many forums over the years that would find a post deleted within 5 minutes if it mentions the competition or anything negative about the organization or hosts' products or services.

Ninja should have contacted Ian and Amie, via private PM, at the earliest stage of this, to ask whether or not it would be OK for him to post as he was representing a service and product. Especially one that is a mod of our hosts' product. Because, let's face it, by announcing that your product improves on the original, you have to talk a bit about possible shortcomings in the original.

It just wasn't handled well on Ninja's end. As someone who was a forum moderator, he should have known better.




_________________________
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::

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#222361 - 09/24/08 07:43 AM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: MarkSJohnson]
DaveG Offline
aficionado

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 868
Loc: WI
Couldn't agree more.
_________________________
Dave

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#222368 - 09/24/08 08:10 AM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: BlueJays1]
woofersus Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 32
Loc: Mount Vernon, OH
 Quote:
Nice plug! I do not agree that internet direct companies give you the best value for your money. This is a false assumption. There are many other companies that can compete in these price ranges...I just prefer the Axiom sound in this price range \:\) :).


Well, I can't pretend to have done enough research on this to dispute it, because I haven't. It's just been my experience so far. Certainly the business model lends itself to it, although with some smaller ID companies they may not have the economies of scale that a large B&M manufacturer would.


Edited by woofersus (09/24/08 08:18 AM)
_________________________
Tim Evans
East Street Audio

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#222372 - 09/24/08 08:58 AM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: DaveG]
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6248
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
I agree that Sean could've handled things better on his end. It was a mistake to offer to send his crossover to Ian, and then renege. I believe the offer was made in good faith, but I suspect (pure speculation on my part) that his partners in this venture nixed the idea. He has pointed out, almost hinting hopefully, that they can't prevent anyone from buying the crossover and sending it to Ian.

I have not read what is being said on his web site, but IF he said anything derogatory about this forum over there, justifiable or not, that would also be a mistake.

Of course, the whole thing could've been handled a bit better on this end as well. Many members, the vast majority in fact, accepted what he is doing with an open mind. Unfortunately, a persistently vocal few reacted with nearly immediate comments of "snake oil, "BS," and sarcastic speculations of "magic" and "coincidence" (wink wink; nudge nudge). Finally it got down to the point that the whole thing was dismissed as a "marketing ploy." Nice.

So, as is usually the case when conflict arises, there's plenty of blame to go around.
_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#222381 - 09/24/08 09:52 AM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: Ajax]
BlueJays1 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 4074
Loc: Porch,enjoying Bombay Sapphire
Ajax go back to the original post of this thread. Is there any fault in the emmediate reactions that was given by the community by calling it BS, snake oil etc...I think not. For someone with such a low post count promoting a brand new website, a product and posting a link to it is considered SPAM. I do not think it is the fault of this community at all. The blame should be pointed to the approach that was taken by them in this matter. I think that is the biggest issue here.
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-Max Payne

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