Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo M22ti or M3ti for 18x12 room????

100% music application. Room is approx 18'x 14'x 7.5' high. Speakers would be on the 14' side. It would be on the bright side as it has laminate wood floor, large window on one side and not a whole lot of wall treatments. I'm not an interior decorator, and evidently neither is my wife. One sofa, one loveseat, couple of endtables and a piano.

Listening tastes range from jazz to light rock, a little hard rock once in awhile, a very little classical now and then. No country (gag). I don't need to blow the roof off volume wise, but would be nice to kick it once in awhile.

Anyway, given those conditions, the fact that I like well defined but not thumping bass, and that they will be driven by a Yamaha 5790 receiver, would either the M22ti or the M3ti be a good fit for this room? From what I've gleened off this site, it sounds as though the 22's are a bit on the bright side, so maybe the M3's would be a better fit here. Would either by themselves give good enough bass to skip the sub?

Or.....would the M50's or 60's be a better fit all around?

So many possibilites, any feedback will be appreciated.

Do you plan to use a sub?

Without one, the M3 will give you more bass over the M22. Both speakers offer a slightly different sound. I don't own either one, so maybe someone else can chime in.

I do have the M40 and it does offer a lot more bass than my bookshelves. When I say more bass, I mean the kind that you can feel. Makes me want to crank up the music. You state that you're not looking to blow the roof off, so maybe the smaller speakers will be a better fit.

I think your room size could use M60ti. Good full range speaker. You may not need a sub. But for HT, a sub is a must. IMHO

I'm not ruling out a sub. If its needed, I'd do it. If not, then great, just one less new "box thing" to explain to the mrs.

You know, bugbitten may be right about the floorstander thing. If you factor in the price of stands for the bookshelves, you get closer to the M50s. The size of your room can certainly accomodate larger speakers. The room may not be the deciding factor, just ask the Mrs. . .

I'll throw in a vote for the M60s.

M60s, that's what I have!!! I always thought I would need a sub with bookshelves, even though there are are many people that suggest a sub for M60s as well. I am quite happy with their bass though. All these for a 2 channel music system. For HT, M22s with sub would be just as good.

Well, I'm not against floorstanders. And the relative merits of the M60's are pretty obvious from reading these forums. I also did the math on the M22's plus the stands, and it starts to make the 50's or 60's a viable choice strictly from a money perspective. I suppose a sub can always be added if one thinks its necessary.

So moving on to the inevitable "let's spend more" stage of this process, has anyone actually ever returned their axioms during the 30 day trial period? If so, how did it work out for you? Not that I think I would, but just wondering if there is anything in the fine print somewhere.
If not, I'm wondering exactly why I wouldn't take advantage of the trial period and try the 50's or 60's......

My wife's right....I'm waaayyy to easy.

Remember that for music you don't really need a sub if you have good full-range speakers. I rarely use the sub when listening to music on M60s (music/HT system) and never use a sub when listening to music on M40s (upstairs music system).

In other words, one could argue that you are comparing M50 vs. M3 plus stands plus sub, or M60 vs. M22 plus stands plus sub.

For a music-only system I would go with 50s or 60s and forget the sub. In a bright room M50s might be preferable. What kind of music do you listen to the most ?

Just go for the M60's!
You won't be sorry...

When I'm playing cds or listening to radio, I run pure direct on the Denon. The sub is off.

I agree with John on this one.

If you're using these for 100% music and you're not into pipe organ music or rap/hip-hop, go with the M60s and forget the sub. The M60 will cover your music range fine.

If you go with a bookshelf....virtually ANY bookshelf out there, I think you'll just end up wanting a sub. And that' more $$ and, as you said, another box in the room.

One more vote for the 60s.

About your question concerning the axiom return policy and fine print.

The collective experience of the Axiom owning members of this forum is that Axiom has outstanding service and honours all their policies as stated. No fine print to be found.

Paul

I agree that the return policy is real. The Axiom people are very helpful.

No worries about fine print. Axiom's customer service is stellar.

Thank you all for your responses. I must say this is a very open and helpful site.

Now, another question. I am familiar with the sound of Boston Acoustics because I have owned them for some time. How does the sound of the M60 compare to that of the VR3's or VR2's? If anyone has feedback on that, I'd certainly appreciate it.

My room is bigger than yours and I just have a pair of M3's in em (plus VP150, QS4's and a sub).

Surprisingly these lil M3's fill the room rather well. Yes, I still want a pair of floorstanding speakers (M60's) but thats mostly just something I've wanted for years but never could afford (still can't).

If ur on a budget I'd say the M3's would be fine. If you have a lil more money M22's and a sub would prolly give more impact, and obviously M60's would be the most ideal if you really have some money to spend on speakers. But fear not if you go the M3 route, they are truely amazing *bookshelf* speakers.

Ditto the M3 suggestion.

I ran three M3s across the front in a 12x28 room in the old house and they did a great job.

Have to agree with F107+5

M3s, a nice quick sub like a velodyne CHT10 or even an 8 for another octave, and enjoy the music!!!

Hi Wdkomo,

A few comments addressing a number of your questions:
Without using a subwoofer, the limitation of ALL small-enclosure bookshelf speakers is deep bass extension as well as overall bass output. In the room you describe, with either the M22ti or M3ti, a subwoofer like Axiom's EP175 would be essential. If you have area rugs, get the M22ti for their wonderfully detailed soundstage and clarity. If you have bare floors, the M3ti has a tad less midrange output. If you have typical furnishings (area rugs, upholstered furniture, etc.), the M22ti's are not "bright".

The floorstanding equivalents of those two bookshelf models are the M60ti and the M50ti, respectively.

As to Boston Acoustics, while I have not heard the models you mentioned, a general comment would be that Boston's strengths always lay in their least expensive small bookshelf models like the old A40s, A60s and A70s. Overall, Boston is not in the same league as Axiom in terms of neutrality and natural uncolored sound reproduction.

Comparable speakers to the M22ti in terms of tonal balance and neutrality are the Paradigm Reference Studio 20s (I own a pair). The Paradigms have a bit of a bass "hump" centered around 80 to 120 Hz that causes male vocals to sound a bit bloated or "fat". On first hearing, the Studio 20s give the impression of having more bass output than the M22s or M3s; in reality, they don't go any lower than the Axioms. The bass from the M22s and M3s is smoother and doesn't have the hump.

Regards,

this is kind of a similar question to myself. I was looking at the 22's and 3's for a bar situation. The room will be all laminate hardwood, basement. Room is bit of an odd shape. Imagine two squares, one being small at 8'x 8 where the bar is located, and the other 14x10 which will be the "dance floor" or whatever we do with it. The speakers will be on the dance floor side, on the 10' wall. All top 40, pop, some rap music. Killer is, I need to wall mount them. Probably get a sub, but not right away. %90 this room will be for the women to dance in while the men find other things to do in the media/game room.

Which one has more bass? I'm assuming the 22ti? I have the 80's, I don't know if there is a way you can describe the sound in comparison using the 80's.

From what I know and what I think that I know, I believe I would recomend the M3s for this application. The M3s have the same bass as the M22s but since the M3s have a very slight bass hump, they "sound" as though there is more bass. They may be even be a bit more pleasant sounding in a more reflective invironment as well. The need for a sub won't be near as pressing with the M3s either. Also, since they are shorter and lighter, the M3s may even be easier to wall mount!

They won't, of course sound exactly like the M80s, but there will be a strong Family Resemblence. Though with more of a laid-back feel. They won't give you the accuracy of the M22s or M80s, but since the speakers won't be used primarilly for serious listening, this may not be a significant problem.

The M22s "sound" more like the M80s but with much less bass.
The M3s are a little closer to the M80s in bass but don't have the accuracy the M80s are noted for in the midrange.

Add a sub to M22s and you sort of have.....

understood, thanks

EnjoytheMusic.com is one of my favorite sites for equipment reviews. Colin Flood is one of my favorite reviewers. Here's his review of the M3Ti.

A quick glance at the Axiom M3Tis shows them to be classic two-way bookshelf loudspeakers. This style is the foundation for millions of American audio systems. They are the family four-door sedans of the audio market - lots of features and value for the money. The $275 Axiom M3it pair adds a few of their own smart details to the standard tweeter and woofer configuration to distinguish them from the crowd. Music is hidden in those details.

Normally, I could care less about the construction of a loudspeaker - the sound comes first - but these little charmers sound so good, I want to go over some of the reasons why they do:

First off, there is no crossover element on the woofer, a feature of more esoteric audiophile fare. The woofer runs free and clear - then it rolls off gently. The mechanical roll-off integrates naturally with the tweeter, without the restrictions and cost of a crossover. Since the Axiom M3Tis sound so good, this small feature becomes important.

The second impression is that they are very well made, especially considering their low price. The cabinet on this Axiom M3Tis model was a seamless Boston Cherry veneer. Not that you can tell that it was a veneer. There is no exposure of the wood underneath. The fit and finish is very good - in the same league as more expensive loudspeakers. Veneering and edges are flawless. The bare-knuckle "thump" test was excellent for such a small and inexpensive loudspeaker.



Other than the typical bookshelf frontal appearance, with two drivers, one on top of the other, the next item that catches your attention upon closer inspection, is the tapered side of their cabinets. The Axiom M3Tis are not merely small square boxes.

The front corner edges are truncated and the sides slope back, the rear panel is narrower than the front one, creating a slight wedge shape to the boxes. The walls are asymmetrical - meaning not parallel to each other.

Axiom trumpets their eight-sided seamless cabinets as "ground-breaking Anti Standing Wave (ASW)." The asymmetrical wedge shape reduces internal standing waves, making the Axiom M3Tis more resonant free and the internal air easier to move. Since this design feature is too subtle to be a mere gimmick (it is not visible from the front of the Axiom M3Ti loudspeakers), this is attention to detail is quite unexpected at the bottom level for audio systems. With the M3Tis sounding so good, this feature too becomes important.

The next item that catches your attention on the Axiom M3Ti loudspeakers is the unusual port on the back. The port is a long black round plastic tube. It is corrugated or puckered on one end, almost large enough for a fist and tapers slowly to the other end. The puckered tube extends straightforward into the cabinet. It reaches close to the front panel, narrowing as it gets closer. You can see the silver back of the tweeter at the end of the plastic tunnel.

The vortex port offers "more volume for the same diameter." The port's puckered shape slows and concentrates air moving through it. When the Axiom M3Ti loudspeaker is working hard, you can feel puffs of air coming from the wide mouth of the port. Since this attention to detail is also not visible from the front of the Axiom M3Ti, this feature too is an unexpected delight at this level of audio. Since their sound is so good, this third feature adds to a sum certainly worth more than its parts.



Axiom Audio

Axiom Audio may be a new name to some, but they have been around for 20 years. In fact, founder Ian Colquhoun joined the Canadian National Research Council project, whose aim was to standardize the measurement of loudspeaker sound, in 1982. This experience shows in the thoughtfulness given to such a low cost loudspeaker. Their AX line of loudspeakers won the "Critic's Choice" award from Sound & Vision magazine several times. Axiom added the Millennia line in their 19th year.

The Axiom M3Tis are the second largest bookshelf loudspeakers in the Millennia line. They have a larger bookshelf model and a tower line of loudspeakers also. The M3Tis have a smooth white aluminum woofer cone and a button shaped 15 oz. ferro-fluid cooled titanium tweeter (hence the "Ti" appellation) protected by a small black cross of plastic. Gold plated binding posts provide for good and clean connections. Axiom M3Tis come shipped to your door via Fed Ex three-day air for only $275 - even less, if you buy their Factory Outlet models with barely visible blemishes.

The loudspeaker sensitivity is rated well above average, 93dB efficiency. Yet, their actual one kHz in room response was about 10dB less than loudspeakers rated at 100dB/W/m. Still, Axiom M3Tis seem very easy to drive. They did not give the 3.5 watt tube amplifiers I used any hint of a problem. Impedance is typical, rated at a nominal 8 ohms.



Small Loudspeaker Woes

Keep in mind that at this end of the audio spectrum; many low cost bookshelf loudspeakers suffer from more faults than strengths. They often struggle to reproduce the music. Instruments are "jambled" together like Grandma's stew - all sorts of things thrown in there. Cabinets and drivers are lightweight: thin and flimsy. Separation is poor. Dynamics are congested. Bass dies on the vine, parched from lack of power and control. Treble just hisses at you … oh gad, I could go on and on, but you get the idea. Nothing that captures the joyous essence of music; only something that imitates the sound.

Any good bookshelf loudspeaker needs to be away from the front and sidewalls, and positioned at ear level for best listening affects. Solid, heavy stands are very strongly recommended for tweaking audiophiles, but I did not use loudspeaker stands for my listening, although Axiom provides decent looking ones. Instead, 100 lb. Klipsch Cornwalls loudspeakers served as burly 3' tall pedestals. The Axiom M3Tis were at least three feet from all walls; in a 14' by 17' carpeted room closed on one end, but open on the other.



The M3Ti

The sound and construction of Axiom M3Tis are wonderful exceptions to many low cost bookshelf loudspeakers. While they are smoothly colored, in the mid-range and mid-bass, this adds - not detracts - from the overall sound.

The bass especially, is surprisingly deep for such little loudspeakers. Though the sub-bass (10Hz to 60Hz.) region was not rated, because it does not exist, the Axiom M3Tis sound much deeper than their 50 Hz bottom. Bass is quite extended, given both the size and the price of the Axioms. It bass is tight, detailed and uncommonly deep; low enough for most music. When the loudspeakers are cranked too high however, they do sound like many small loudspeakers do: straining under a heavy load.

The bass is not exceptionally taut or punchy, but it is smooth, obvious in its presence and much deeper than the narrow size would indicate. In fact, I double-checked to make sure the sub-woofers were off. Because of this, the typical $500 mid-bass sub-woofer is unlikely to add much power or pleasure to the pair. A sub-woofer that retailed for above $1000 was a better match. I found myself using the 500-watt Klipsch LF10 to accompany the M3Tis. With it, I achieved very good imaging, soundstage and bass depth, but without a lot of mid-bass punch.

The low-priced Axiom M3Tis impressed me greatly with their clarity and resolution, particularly in the crucial midrange area. The midrange is open and clear. They have a level of smoothness normally associated with high-end loudspeakers. The bass and the smooth mid-range make for one very listenable and enjoyable charmer of a cherry box.

In fact, the only loudspeaker I have heard with a smoother, more liquid mid-range and crisp treble presentation was the JM Lab Cobalts, backed by Audio Refinement equipment. Yet, that set-up was four times the price. It was not merely smooth however; it bordered on the lush, Hagen-Daz™ rich and creamy side.

This was borne out with a simple test. I allowed for three things in my test: a 2dB range for the inaccuracy of the Radio Shack SPL meter, a 5-6kHz bounce for room reflection and some latitude for the Paramours' lack of woofer impedance control. I found the actual "C" weighted in-room frequency response to be as flat as some very expensive loudspeakers, within 3dB, and the real-world range to be typical of the handful of loudspeakers I've tested, from 100Hz to 16kHz. In other words, they capture most of the musical spectrum fairly accurately.

The Millennia 3Tis possess an even tonal balance, no bloat or exaggeration, and most importantly, no overly warm woolly character that can plague lower-priced loudspeakers. The M3Tis are easygoing in the midrange and non-mechanical overall. They have very good retrieval of detail, due perhaps to the absence of the crossover.

Rated to 22kHz, their high end is sweet and amazingly good. It is some of the best treble I have heard on cone loudspeakers: very smooth, an excellent balance of detail and sweetness, with a pretty and detailed presentation throughout the mid-range.



Switching Engines

I listen with a Rotel CD player and the Series II version of the Dynaco's classic PAS-3 tube pre-amp. My current stack of reference discs includes the wonderfully sultry and showy jazz of Diana Krall in 24-bit/96kHz [Stepping Out, JustinTime 2000, see my gushing review by clicking here]. The stack includes the excellent darkness and instrumental tones on the DMP Does DSP SACD [Digital Music Products '99], the amazing clean and tight jazz sounds on the 20 Bit Taste of DMP sampler [DMP '93] and the various Stereophile magazine Test CD recordings ('90, '92 and '95).

There is nothing like an efficient loudspeaker with a tube amp. With the enchanting $99 ASL Wave 8 tube monoblocks (see my review here), the Axiom M3Tis are punchy and dynamic - together, these little puppies rock. Because of this, percussive sounds lead the way. I have not heard the very well regarded PSB line of loudspeakers, but if their low cost models come any near this level of performance, then they can really sing!

With the 3.5 watt Bottlehead 2A3 Paramours, the Axiom sound was delicate, smooth and detailed with very good texture and tone. Eminently listenable. If you want to cloister yourself with chamber or ensemble music, then budget for refined musical sounding amps to go with for these charmers.

Despite its overall proficiency, the Axiom M3Tis are still small loudspeakers. Nevertheless, they play all kinds of music, including rock and orchestral pieces, at normal listening levels. These are not big, brassy "party" loudspeakers, nor are they suitable for a very large room. If that is what you need, Axiom does offer larger loudspeakers based on the same technology. I hope to hear one of the company's floor-standing models next month.

When playing any variety of music the Axiom M3Tis cast a credible soundstage with a fine sense of depth. They do not have the huge and effortless dynamics of big old horns. Their imaging was good, but they do not cast a 3D sonic hologram as well as focused big old horns can either. Both dynamics and imaging however, are as good as some loudspeakers that are much more expensive.



Caveat Emptor

While the Axiom M3Tis cannot do everything extremely well, I never had the feeling that I was missing anything substantial. In fact, I felt they added something to the sound and enjoyment of music. Therefore, I have to conclude that they are probably colored in their sound. Logically, I must warn that not everybody will find them as enjoyable as I did. Their coloration, what ever it is, may not be for everyone.

Yet, I would expect high-end loudspeakers to add this kind of joy to recordings, but most of them rarely do. The engagingly colored voices of low-end loudspeakers are often sacrificed for the clinically austere specs of high-end ones.

Compared to the industrial gray of the Vince Christian E6 satellites, they do not have the texture, tone, sound-staging or imaging. Next to the Newtronics Skate MK.II, they sound smaller, yet more full.

In contrast to my big old horns, the Axiom M3Tis seem to be exceptionally well balanced, but not as dynamic or "live" sounding. Yet, they are not deficient in any substantial way; there are no obvious anomalies to fatigue during long-term listening. They are smooth and detailed. Impressive construction. Incredible value for the money. Very smart attention to detail. They show how good inexpensive cone loudspeakers can be.

Anybody looking for high quality, very low cost loudspeakers, should listen to the Axiom's - good luck finding anything remotely as good for $275. I think they are better than any B&W, Klipsch, Infinity, Technics, Bose, JBL and Sony models I have heard in this price range. They certainly beat the mainstream fare offered at Best Buy stores. I would not hesitate to recommend strongly them to any one looking at name-brand models. If people cannot hear obvious differences, at least they get a better-made loudspeaker - for less money.

Loudspeakers are the only bargain in audio - they are where you get the most bang for your audio buck. The Axiom M3Tis are elegant examples of that. The Axiom M3Tis are great, inexpensive loudspeakers that bring some of the tweaking audiophile high-end sound down to a ridiculously low price. They are a good match for front-end equipment costing two to three times their price. Axiom M3Tis are among the best bargains in audio.



Tonality
90

Sub-bass (10 Hz - 60 Hz)
N/A

Mid-bass (80 Hz - 200 Hz)
95

Midrange (200 Hz - 3,000 Hz)
95

High-frequencies (3,000 Hz on up)
90

Attack
85

Decay
85

Inner Resolution
85

Soundscape width front
85

Soundscape width rear
85

Soundscape depth behind speakers
85

Soundscape extension into the room
85

Imaging
95

Fit and Finish
100

Self Noise
110

Value for the Money
110

He also goes on to review the M80s, and the M3 does quite well again, in the M80 review!!

Oh, did I mention, I really....really like my M3s

I agree, F107+, I think the M3s are absolutely superb speakers. I wish Axiom would upgrade them, or come out with a reference line of speakers and take the M3 to the next level. What I would hope Amie and Ian and Joe V would do is buy a pair of Reference 3a de Capo mm i speakers, and tweak the M3s until they sound just as good.

BTW, Axiom folk, I hope y'all voice the M3+ speakers using both solid state and a nice tube amp since the M3 is such a natural match with low powered fire-bottle amps.

I still need to hear those little wonders (MM de Capos), but I have a feeling that if you want the de Capo sound, you'll need to pay the de Capo price.

Maybe, PMB, but an Axiom bookshelf for under $500/pair with 95% of the goodness would be a wonderful thing. If they don't try, it won't happen.

Hear Hear!! Three cheers for M3 upgrades!!

(And let's not forget their bigger brothers; the M50s, which can also use just a little improvement to become something really special!!)

ah, yes, the M50s. I had a pair and preferred the M3s to the M50s.

I recall you making that comment, oh,.....I don't know......bout three or four years ago? Quite some time anyway. One of the points made that gave me pause in purchasing a set of M50s!

Ian published an NRC plot during the Holidays last year that showed the bass hump and the yucky stuff around 1 to 2k being cleaned up in comparison to the M3. Don't know if they made some mods to the M50s since you last auditioned them, but all in all they aren't a bad speaker. And they do match up extreemly well with the M3s that I'm using in all other positions in my system.

We are using them mostly for HT and TV viewing and they give no reason for complaints, and in some respects do seem to surpass my favorite M3s!!

For serious listening, I will be using M3s in the smaller stereo only system.

Soons I figure out what to drive 'em with