Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners I need help selecting a new system.

I relize this is maybe a biased place to post but I want to hear opinions from Axiom owners.

I'm looking to get a new system, I already sent the old one to my sister. After reading about and becoming interested in the technology behind the YSP-1, I went down to Tweeter and bought it. Two weeks latter I returned the unit. My room layout(a more or less L shaped floor plan) just wasn't compatible with the unit. I did love the way it sounded, very clear dialogue and fantastic surround on my left, front, and back, but a gapping void on my right. Anyway after taking it back the wife said "Our TV sounds like *@#$!, go get something."

I even got the ok to get floor standing speakers with the catch that I "better do something really nice for her $$$".

I've been looking at orbaudio.com for some time and the WAF on the system is huge, with the stipulation that I must get 4 HOSS stands. Which cost like $600, pretty steep for the stands.

I've also been looking at a 5.1 Mirage system at vanns.com. They have an Omni 255, 50, CC1, S10 setup for $1249. I liked the S8 sub I had when I auditioned the YSP1 and I've heard great things about the sweet spot on this system.

I've also heard great things about Axiom, but for my taste they are looking a bit DIY. I'm not an audiophile but I do love immersive surround sound. Clear dialogue is a total must for me, I find that I'm usually fiddling with the volume because the explosions on movie sound tracks are so much louder than the dialogue. "Turn it down you'll bother the neighbors" is a frequently used statement. I never listen to music. I play loads of video games and am drooling over the xbox 360. I can afford about 2k on a great sound system and dream of the day I can move it into my fantasy home theatre room.

I'm really considering the Epic Midi 125, possibly the M50ti for mains. Any input is appreciated.

I forgot to say that I have a 50" Grand Wega III in an 18.5 x 18.5 room.

Thanks!

Take a look at the custom finishes. Maybe you'll find something a bit more visually appealing. As far as the sound goes, try ordering a pair of towers from Axiom for an in-home trial. That way, if you don't like them you'll only return two speakers rather than five. On the plus side, if you do like them I'm sure you can order the rest and still get the package discount.

Take a look at the audition thread and see if someone lives near to you.

I would second the plan to buy just the mains to see how you like them. I own M50s ans M22s as well as several other axiom speakers for center and surrounds which I acquired later. Initially we went with the 50s for the mains and loved them. We bought the 22s for the bedroom afterwards. Part of our decision to get the 50s was the close cost between them and M22s plus stands. In direct listening comparison they both sound very good with subtle differences.

Clive,

Yes, the Yamaha relies on having parallel side walls or it doesn't work properly.

Mirage builds decent speakers (I owned a pair of Mirage bipolar slabs for years) but with Mirage's omni or bipolar approach, you trade off neutrality and accuracy (which you get from Axiom) for the larger-than-life soundstage. I also disagree totally with Mirage's omni center channel speakers, which make for murky dialog, inhibiting clarity.

For your room, add two pairs of QS8 surrounds and you'd have wonderfully immersive surround, coupled with the precise soundstage from some M60 towers and a VP150 center for excellent dialog clarity.

Regards,

Alan said it before I could. I would try M60ti's first for that room with th VP150 and QS8's. I had 60's before I upgraded to 80's. I would try an EPIC 60-500 if you could swing it.

Thanks for all the input, one of the reasons I posted here was because Axiom enjoys such a strong fan base.

Alan thanks very much for your input on the mirage center cc1, I was wondering about sound dispersion on the Omni center.

I think my situation is very simular to average joe HT buyer. I want good sound that won't upset the Wife or neighbors. Axiom seems very exspensive to me and while sound quality maybe something that is appreciated by the audiophile, will it make any difference in my family room were the volume never reaches epic levels? I've also got a dog, cat and central AC unit, all of which do reach epic levels, LOL.

Will I notice the difference between a good Axiom system and a JBL 300.7 HTIB? If I can get 90% of the sound for 30% of the price then Axiom or anoyone else who is High endish will be a no go.

I've been out to listen to several systems in the stores but I'm not convinced of thier honesty in setups, etc.

I know I can purchase two systems and return one but I'd like to save Tweeter from another round of my returns and I'd like to limit the number of systems I'm going to ship back.

I wouldn't want to only test a few components because for me, surround sound is the reason I decided not to keep the YSP-1.

I'd feel strange about trooping into someones home for an audtion but I will check that out on the forums, see who's around.

I imagine I waiting to hear someone say that their sound system is sent directly from heaven and those without it are just suckers. What I've been hearing from everyone to this point is...

"Yeah I used to work in X high end audio store like 20 years ago. I could tweak a $40 sound system so that the shopper thought he was hearing a $10,000 system every time."

I know Axiom builds a quality product, but 20 years from now will I care? I'll want the 4D Quadrophased Holographic system for 20 bucks at that point.

So will it realy make a difference today? I know this is a question I must answer for myself so I want to pick from 2 good systems. If Axiom makes a much better product than Orb Audio or Mirage then its what I should try out in my home.

Is there a signifigant difference between a micro-ish speaker like Orb's and a bookshelf like Axioms?

Either way it good to hear from educated consumers who made a careful selection. Thanks for all your input.

Clive, you're the only person who can answer that question for yourself. We've all (probably) asked that question, and found the answer to be "Yes, the sound quality does matter!" If you can find someone nearby you to audition the speakers, that could help. The sound quality of the Axioms is so far beyond most other things I've heard (short of $2000-$15000 pairs of speakers), it absolutely made sense to get them.

As for the "DIY appearance" of Axioms, I'm guessing that means they don't have plastic cladding and exciting swoopy bits like the other speakers. I guess I don't really understand that comment...

Boy! I've been struggling with a reply to your questions all day. I'm going to have to take them one at a time.

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Axiom seems very expensive to me and while sound quality maybe something that is appreciated by the audiophile, will it make any difference in my family room were the volume never reaches epic levels?

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Relative to HTIBs, and lesser speakers, I can understand Axioms seeming expensive. I know that when I first bought mine I thought I was paying an awful lot. But the reason I went with Axiom was because I felt they were less expensive (MUCH less in some cases) than the other brands I felt were in the same class. "Bang for the buck" is one of the reasons to buy Axioms.

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Will I notice the difference between a good Axiom system and a JBL 300.7 HTIB? If I can get 90% of the sound for 30% of the price then Axiom or anyone else who is High endish will be a no go.

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I owned a JBL HTIB shortly before I bought my Axioms. It was a 5.1 predecessor to the 300.7 which I have to admit I've never heard. BUT, based on my experience with my JBL HTIB, I'd wager the farm that for 30% of the price of Axioms, you're going to get 30%, or even less, of Axiom performance. The Axioms were impressively better than anything I'd ever owned.

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I've been out to listen to several systems in the stores but I'm not convinced of thier honesty in setups, etc.

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OH GOOD FOR YOU! I don't believe (or, at least I HOPE) most dealers are going to try to trick you, but I know for a fact it DOES happen. Your skepticism is wise. One of the advantages of Axioms and other internet only brands (IO) is that you can try them in your own room, with your own equipment, set up the way you want them. The downside to that is that you'd have to pay return shipping (only to Buffalo where Axiom has a return depot). For this reason, it is recommended you initially order only a pair of the main speakers in which you are interested (M80s, M60s, M50s,M22s, etc.), to see if the Axiom sound is for you. Then if you are impressed enough with their sound go ahead and order the center and surrounds. If you do this all within the 30 day trial period, and you feel you've made a mistake, you can still return the package for only return shipping.

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I'd feel strange about trooping into someones home for an audition but I will check that out on the forums, see who's around.

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Trust me. You mustn't feel the least bit strange about going for an audition. Most of us are quite proud of our systems and are dying to show off them off (dust and all ). It's a hobby we love. Only those who are willing volunteer for demos, and we all know that the Axiom sound isn't for everybody, so you needn't fear offending anyone.

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I imagine I waiting to hear someone say that their sound system is sent directly from heaven and those without it are just suckers.

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LOL! Well, while many of us may feel that way about our systems, we'd feel a little foolish coming out with that. And frankly, were I you, I'd be wary of anyone who did. There are several things we've learned by immersing ourselves in this hobby. One, there is no such thing as the perfect speaker. And, two, while we love our own, there are many speakers out there that are also excellent products. Speaker choice is very subjective. The one I love, you might loathe, and vice versa.

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So will it realy make a difference today? I know this is a question I must answer for myself so I want to pick from 2 good systems. If Axiom makes a much better product than Orb Audio or Mirage then its what I should try out in my home.

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As you wisely point out, that's a question you must answer for yourself. But I'd be ver surprised if it didn't make a difference today. I don't know anything about the Orbs or Mirages or the YSP, or what you've owned before. But, I CAN tell you the Axioms took me into a whole new ballpark. And while they may seem expensive to you, they are a better value than most of the others in that ballpark.

Your room is not a small room. Whatever direction you go in, think about a larger subwoofer than the 125. You have a good amount of air to move in that space. If the budget won't allow that, then go with what it will allow, and don't worry about it.

I know I must be sounding like a salesman through this monologue, but the truth is, I don't even own Axioms anymore (It's a long story. And trust me, you don't want to hear it). But I've stuck around because I found so many good friends here, and because I believe in Axiom's people and products.

Are Axioms for you? "You know who" is the only one that can answer that.

Not too many things to add after all the other wrote. I also suggest you may try to audition at somebody's home, before you actually buy any speakers. See if there is somebody near you at "Hearing things" thread. Good luck with your decision.

BTW, I came from JBL Northridge E60 floorstanders to Axiom, and I can tell you that there is a very noticable difference in quality.

You are asking all the right questions. Getting into home theater is daunting because there is such a huge range of products and prices, from $200 including 5 speakers, sub and DVD player right up to tens of thousands of dollars. Maybe half of the systems are overpriced junk but half of them aren't... and the sound keeps getting better right up to the top of the range.

There are a lot of decent small systems (speakers + sub) in the $500 US range which will sound pretty good in either a small room or a small area of a large room (ie all the speakers are fairly close to the listener, not spread out around the room). The sub will have a tough time in the large room even if everything is close together, but if you don't play too loud that won't be a problem. Sound quality and clarity won't be fantastic but it won't be too bad either.

From that point you can go up in two directions -- bigger speakers that can handle the room with the same clarity, or higher quality small speakers. Both of these are going to be in the $1000 range; not sure either makes sense for you.

Next step up is to high quality full sized speakers (bookshelf or floorstanding) and the Axioms suddenly start to seem like really good value, sort of upper-middle-class performance at lower-middle-class pricing.

If we want to use "Axiom-class" speakers as a reference (say $2000), I would say you get perhaps 40% of the performance for 25% of the price ($500 systems), 70% of the performance for 50% of the price ($1000 systems) etc.., ie you still get more for your money by purchasing a considerably less expensive system. Nobody can beat that equation including Axiom.

Everyone has their own threshold where they say either "I think this is mighty fine; I could get better but why bother" or they say "I know this isn't perfect but it meets our needs for now and I don't feel like spending more now".

I have a lot of friends who are perfectly happy with their $500 system because it plays at the SPLs they need (moderate) in their room configuration (fairly small or intimate arrangement in a larger room) with the content they care about (95% movies plus a bit of background music). Some of them have $10000 invested in display & player plus $700 in speakers & electronics and that's right for them. I have $500 in display and player, $3000+ in speakers & electronics but for me the sound is the most important part of the experience.

If you are looking for high quality sound at "real movie" type sound levels then you are getting into the $1500 and up systems and Axiom is a very good competitor in that market. It really depends on where your own threshold is.

One of the terrible realities is that the room makes a huge difference in the quality of the sound you hear, so even auditioning in a variety of rooms isn't going to give you the whole story. What I can say is that there is a definite improvement as you go up the price range, something like :

$500 -- not super clear but OK; decent volume in a real small room, disappointing volume in a larger room

$1000 -- significantly better clarity OR ability to fill a larger room (but not both)

$1500 and up -- significantly better clarity AND ability to fill a larger room ($$ keep going up as your room gets bigger and your concept of "loud" gets louder ).

Wow thanks for all the input, it's so nice to hear from people who say things other than.

Get RoCkeT TykeS, they are da Bomb!!!

I'm glad to hear from everyone here that the difference between a $300 system and a $2000 home theatre is very noticeable. I've been reading alot on the net and after a while you get the feeling that people can get very picky. Many reviewers talk about how they missed audio in the X KHz range and I start thinking these guys are not like me. I think, either I'm going deaf or I can't descrimate sound properly.

The system I buy will follow several weeks of nothing but the in unit TV speakers (before I gave them away I had Wharfedale Modus 5's - I think). Ack! Maybe I am loosing hearing because every line sounds like mud.

Seriously though I appreciate all of your input and while I feel that bang for the buck Axiom are if not the very best out there than they are so close to the best that it doesn't matter.

Internet consensus agrees that Axiom is da Bomb.

The wife however does not. She likes Orbs. I'm sure I will as well. I think when I've got a real theatre in a real house I will revisit Axiom.

A couple more things, I love that axiom will do a custom finish. I can't believe other companies do not do the same, to expensive for me though. As for the DIY comment, perhaps I should have said that Axioms style is simple, straight forward, no nonsense serious hardware. I do not dislike the Axiom appearance, but I will freely admit I have a sweet spot for plastic whiz bangs, I did buy a YSP-1. I also own a Mazda RX8. Style over substance is character defect I've come to enjoy in myself.

The other factor is cost. I simply can't go half way with Axiom. I keep winding up with a cart containing:

FMSQS Stands
FMS24 Stands
Pair M2i Bookshelf Speaker
Pair QS4 Surrounds
VP150 Center
EP175 Powered Subwoofer

How did I get to $1952.25 and still no receiver or cables and what about a pair M50ti's ???

So I'm thinking I will probably wind up with orbs. They've gotten rave review in fact I've only come across one posting which was negative. The poster claim something about the speakers having no mid range. Other than that one post it's all praise.

Orbs are modular / upgradeable which is a big plus for me.

I can return them if I don't like them same as axiom, which is another huge plus.

I think the main thing is the WAF. "They are cute and little."

I don't want this to turn into an ad for another company in part because I'm a huge fan of companies like Axiom, they raise the bar for everyone. This board is an example of that, few other companies will allow this kind of posting for fear of bad word of mouth. It is a sign to me how good this company is that it even has a BBS where this discussion can take place.

If things don't work with the Orbs, Ill be buying from Axiom.

Thanks Everyone!

>>How did I get to $1952.25 and still no receiver or cables and what about a pair M50ti's ???

This is one of the compelling arguments for floorstanders -- once you include the cost of stands its only a couple of hundred extra for M50s. I don't suppose you could hang the QSs on the side or back walls ?

Took a look at the Orbs -- very sharp looking and reviews seem to be pretty good. Just one thought -- if you stay with the Orb 1 drivers then the system is probably going to be limited to filling part of your room; if you upgrade to Orb 2 center and mains then you're up over $1000 already.

I feel obligated to point out that for the same $1050 US you could get 5 Axiom M3s and a HSU STF-1, which IMO would outperform the Orb system by a considerable margin. Agree that WAF wouldn't be as high though and that is very important as well.

Anyways, doing the research is part of the fun and it looks like you're doing a good job. Enjoy and good luck !!

EDIT -- one other system to consider in the $750 range is the package that HSU is offering (http://hsuresearch.com) with the Ventriloquist speakers plus an STF_3 for $795. Again WAF would be lower but you would be getting one heck of a good subwoofer plus comparable sound to the Orbs... and with the big sub I don't think you would complain about the small speakers as much. Even the STF-2 package ($559 or something) would give you enough sub for the future so you wouldn't need to upgrade if you went to bigger & better speakers.

Just a thought...

I think most people, myself included, get into home theater in a evolutionary way. Meaning that we have built up our current systems over time, sometimes years.

The most important thing I try to explain to newbie's is that you need to buy equipment you can build upon. You don't want to have to scrap the system you have in order to move up to something better. This is the biggest problem I see with HTIB's. They usually have one integrated receiver that is junk, with some junky speakers. Where can you go from there? When you finally decide to upgrade, and most likely you will, you have to scrap the whole thing and start over.

In my case I bought a good receiver, Outlaw 1050, and some decent speakers, Paradigm Monitor 7's. I had a homemade sub, and center channel. Then I bought some cheap Boston Acoustics for surrounds. Then I upgraded to Axiom M80's, which also required a bigger amp. Then later got an Axiom center channel, then later an Outlaw sub, then later Axiom surround speakers. This evolution took about 5 years, Now I have a really nice system. I couldn't afford to do it all at once. And I didn't know enough about HT to do it correctly from the start. Learn more, upgrade, learn more upgrade, spreads out the investment. Eventually you get to a point where you say, this is good enough for me, I don't need to spend any more............. Until you hear something better and decide for yourself if it's worth the money to you, to make the improvement.

The point is you don't have to get there all at once. If you buy good equipment, you can build from it. If you buy junk, you will have to scrap it and start over. Not that Orb's are junk, I'm not familiar with them.

Well said. That's what I like about the Hsu system -- you're spending most of your $$ on the sub which will last you through several upgrades.

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one other system to consider in the $750 range is the package that HSU is offering (http://hsuresearch.com) with the Ventriloquist speakers plus an STF_3 for $795. Again WAF would be lower but you would be getting one heck of a good subwoofer plus comparable sound to the Orbs... and with the big sub I don't think you would complain about the small speakers as much. Even the STF-2 package ($559 or something) would give you enough sub for the future so you wouldn't need to upgrade if you went to bigger & better speakers.

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That system is very good for the money.I have one myself and can say that it will suprise most people with what it sounds like.Will it beat a full blown Axiom set up ?.......No it certainly will not but for a budget system it sure is pretty good imo.

Just to be clear, we're not picking on the Orbs, just giving you some options to help you decide what aspects are most important to you and "how good is good enough".

I actually like the Orbs myself; haven't had a chance to hear them but the reviews seem pretty good. What I like is that they have a lot of the same WAF as the Bose systems but both the satellites and the sub seem to offer better sound than the equivalent Bose.

It's a shame that you have to spend so much on stands (with any speaker, not just the Orb) to get that spiffy living room look.

Then again, it would almost be worth buying a basic Orb system just for the stands :

"HOSS (Hunk Of Solid Steel) floor stands are the ultimate complement to our Mod1 and Mod2 satellites. Seductively stylish, they are sure to look great in any room. HOSS is a stunning combination of stainless and carbon steel sourced from American mills. The base is a four inch diameter, three inch tall section of solid steel while the satellite support poles and all of the bracket parts are pure hand polished stainless. Each pair of stands contains nearly twenty-five pounds of steel, all of which is cut, polished and assembled by hand in the USA."

EDIT - of course for the cost of an Orb "People's Choice" system with 2 stands ($1298) you could get 2 M50s (don't need stands), 2 QS4s and an VP100 ($1273) then add the subwoofer later... it's really a question of how much pleasure you get from a great sounding HT system vs. how much pleasure you get from a happy wife.

I would vote for the happy wife any day

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I would vote for the happy wife any day

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I don't know about any day, they win enough as it is.Buy the biggest speakers you can afford then take what punishment there will be.They only stay mad for a while, a system is forever .

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I would vote for the happy wife any day

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My wife agrees with you
Wid, she say less flatering things about you

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Wow thanks for all the input, it's so nice to hear from people who say things other than... Get RoCkeT TykeS, they are da Bomb!!!

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g3t Ax10m m8oZ... Th3y r teh bomm!!!!!11111one!!!

Anyway, enough of that... you'll keep getting upsold by everyone, by salesmen who want to make more money off you, and by guys here that are just looking out for your best interest (and have been there - with blown budgets) I don't really recall anyone feeling rooked after blowing a budget on Axiom equipment. I was originally looking at Paradigms when I got highjacked by a mention of Axioms online (a head-to-head comparison from somewhere)... I vaguely knew the name, so I checked out the site, realized no one near me carried them and thought "not a chance I'm buying these sound-unheard" but this forum (mostly Alan) and a phone conversation with Brent really sold me. Glad they did and I'm not stuck with something just a step up from the HTIB experience.

By the way, I've heard the Hsu Ventriloquist series and, uh, well, Hsu makes good subs.

Bren R.

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Wid, she say less flatering things about you

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That's ok, so does mine .

I don't see the size of your room anywhere on this thread. The Audioholics review (of which I am intimately familiar) clearly stated that the orbs are really only appropriate for smaller rooms...and even then broke up at higher volumes. Really, the WAF is super high (heck, the HAF is high...those things are cool) but the sound does not really compare to the axioms. And yes, the Mod2 is a must, unless you put them in a bedroom.

I know that WAF can be a very important factor in these decisions, however, I strongly suggest that you buy whatever YOUR heart tells you, and then trying to get her acceptance/forgiveness later. If you cannot get those, just wait a little longer, when things calm down a bit.

HSU is the way to go for a sub (or SVS) - better value for the money.

I considered by YSP-1 also at first. It was suggested on Audioholics for the 3K budget. Biggest WAF in my case.
Sound was good at the store, but I had an asymetrical room and it wouldn't fit in the furniture after measuring things at home. But it was an OK setup - mind you I hadn't listened to Axioms before.

Back to Audioholics, next budget level up (5K) = the Axioms M22s - Grand Master modified package.
That's where I heard of them and researched more.
I also realized that I could put QS4/QS8s on the wall without using the extra stands. The mounting brackets are included: my QS8 are right against the wall which I like better. Wife likes that they're not sticking out from the wall.

So after checking out Axiom and figuring the floorstandings
were quite close to the bookshelves + stands, I picked M60s / QS8s / VP100 and EP350. After just one day of use, I can tell the YSP-1 and M60s are in a different class. You pay for it, but it's certainly a level up.

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I strongly suggest that you buy whatever YOUR heart tells you

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As long as you're OK with her buying whatever HERheart tells her, I see no problem with this philosophy.

There's always BOSE.

Just kiddin fellas. I felt compelled to say that for some reason........:)