Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater May Be Returning

Hello guys, long time no hear, well, at least from me anyways. lol

I wonder how many of my used to be buddies still remember just who in the heck I am. LOL

Seriously though, I've been without any Axioms for quite a little while now. I committed the cardinal sin and switched to another manufacture. Specifically speaking, Def Techs.

Now before I get dogged on, let me just say, I for one happen to really like Def Tech speakers, or I should say, I used to. However, things change, and I've come to the conclusion that my relationship with Def Tech is now over.

There are many reasons for this, but one of the biggest has to do with the fact that, well, they are not Audiophile speakers. Not in my opinion anyways. Now some may agrue that, but I can't imagin many that would.

Ok, down to the nitty gritty. Here's the deal guys. I'm thinking about returning back to Axioms, for all the same reason why all of you love your Axioms. Here's the problem though........

I feel, now guys, this is just my opinion speaking here, but part of the reason why I left Axioms to begin with is due to the fact that I've always felt their center channels were kind of their weak link, and I've owned them both. Does anybody else feel this way, or am I sailing in this boat all alone?

The other center channels that I've had, from Def Tech, to Paradigm, to you name it, they all beat the VP 100/150 in some way or another. Again, this is just my opinion. Axioms center channels just seem to lack something, and quite frankly I really can't put my finger on it. It's like it just lacks some umph ya know. All their other speakers, I can't say enough about. In a word, OUTSTANDING!!!!!! But I do feel they need to get off their tales and improve their center channel speakers.

Do any of you have any recommendations? Anybody try using one of their other speakers in place of the VP 100/150?

I appreciate the help/advice.



Sutter

Hi sutter, welcome back....again

What was it: M50s and then M22s as I remember???

Anyway....

....You hit upon the leader of the "Axiom needs a New Center Using 6.5s" Posse'.......

.....uh,...that would be Me

I've been using an M3(vertical and inverted)for quite a while along with my M50s and am extreemly satisfied with that set-up.

However, I've also been toying with the idea of another M50 as center while patiently waiting to see if Axiom couldn't just possibly release a new 6.5" drivered center that would be just as nearly full-range as my currently utilized M3.

So Yup....You aren't the only one who feels that way

Welcome back!
Rich.

Yeah, Kurt, we remember you and welcome you back. As you may recall, my preference has always been for a vertical center rather than any horizontal configuration(I've never heard the VP150), and in Axiom terms would use an M2 or possibly M22 on a TV or a speaker identical to the mains(e.g. M60)underneath a screen.

Hey thanks guys, I really appreciate the warm welcomes. I'm glad to know that I'm not the only one who feels this way.

I recently jumped up to a front projector setup, and I'm thinking of going with, well it's the same ol' debate, just different models this time out. Either the M50's, M60's, or more then likely I'll take the plunge and go after the M80's.

I really loved all the Axioms I've ever owned. I mean, who else produces Audiophile speakers without the Audiophile price ya know. It's just that darn center channel that makes me wanna turn way. On the other hand, all their other speakers are exactly what brings me back! Talk about a double edge sword. lol

You know what would be kind of interesting, is to take an M50 and turn it on it's side. lol

Talk about one hellacious center channel! lol

Well, I'll have to figure out what would be my best options for the center channel, cause I'm about 90% sure I'll probably be returning to these truly remarkable speakers.

I'm getting a set of 60's and a set of 22's for the center. I've heard enough negative comments regarding the VP's to avoid them.

Funny you should mention turning an M50 on it's side...
I'd commented on that just last weekI have an asymetrical listening area and am able to do just that!!!

Yup....

I very nearly DID hoist one of my M50s up on my Mits 65", but the Wife made a few comments....

Hey Sutter...welcome back!
Sorry about the "short and sweet" response, but I'm just exhausted and need to get to bed!

My feelings are that there isn't anything wrong with the VP150, it just isn't as spectacular as many of the other Axioms. My M60s are stellar. The QS-8s are world class. And the new subs are outragous. In my opinion, the VP150 is a very good speaker.... it's just not as amazing as some others and therefore appears weak in comparison.

Just my opinion....YMMV!

Interesting how you bring up their new subs. I just purchased the HSU VTF-3 MK2 not too long ago, and I absolutely love it! It's by far one of the best subs I've ever owned, and I've owned some great ones over the years.

That said, since the release of the EP600, man o' man! Oh how I've been seriously eye balling that bad boy, and considering I'm also putting in a second system upstairs, well, heeheehee, I might just move my HSU up there and snatch myself one of these EP600's for my main system in my theater room. Although that's yet to be decided, for I really to love my HSU sub. However it's still a very strong possibility.

Welcome back, sir! I must say that I rather like our VP100, but I am not, perhaps, the most discerning of listeners.

I too believe that the VP150 is the weak link in my system. I've heard others talk about using a Paradigm center in it's place. I mainly listen to music in 2 channel so I'm in no big hurry, but I'm sure I'll be replacing the VP150 at some point.

If you've gone the FP route, why not three M60ti's up front?

In reply to:

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If you've gone the FP route, why not three M60ti's up front?

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Oh believe me buddy, I've been thinking about that. Unless I decide to jump up to the 80's that is. I wouldn't quite have the clearence for a third 80 in the middle. Well, actually yes I would, if I turned it on it's side.

If 80's and 60's are supposed to be identical excpet for how much louder the 80's will go and the 80's being a little deeper you could go 80, 60, 80...no?

My first upgrade was the VP150 which I had for a year before buying my 60's and QS8's. I am happy with the VP150 but like everyone else I think the other speakers are just that much better...
A big consideration has to be placement though as well. I did notice a slight improvement once I wall mounted my VP150 and aimed it to my position.

Unless your room is HUGE I can't imagine three M60ti's up front wouldn't be enough. That's a LOT of speaker.

*sigh* I wish I had a dedicated room for HT.

If I did there's no doubt I'd go the FP route with three M60ti's up front. Two pair of QS8's for surrounds and rears, and likely dual EP500's. (If I'm not mistaken two subs are easier to setup and get flat responses from than one, and two EP500's are likely more sub than I'd ever really need!)

...someday.

Ya know Guys...thinkin' about it for a moment, this whole center channel question is a lot tougher than it sounds on the surface

If you look at the way Axiom has positioned itself, the VP100 and 150 are the only way that currently works!!

Since most common receivers still offer just one crossover point for each and every speaker in use, and since the QS series only happily go down to around 80hz at best....

....and, take a look at the graphs for the bookshelf AND floorstanders. There ain't "really" a whole lot showing on the graphs below a good solid 80hz.!!! We're not exactly talkin' THX here, but I sure think I see a philosophical similarity evident!(of course, by default)

Read the posts here in the forum; most everyone uses 80hz as their crossover point cause it works best!!

I use 60hz with my M50s, and M3s as center and surrounds, but I do have to do some EQ work in my recvr to accomplish it! It works, but I'd still "Like More"!!!

So for those of us who, because of some character flaw, wish to cross below 80hz, and who want something closer to a full-range speaker in positions other than mains, we just don't currently have many options.

Right now the Axiom emphasis seems to be on the crown jewel 5.25" driver. My favorite; the 6.5, seems to bave been relegated to the bassment.

As I had mentioned in an earlier post; the avg Axiom based home theater a few years back was a few M3s around a 27" Trinitron. Now, however the number of truly serious and beautifully executed Home Theaters using Axiom products is growing at a frantic pace. The EP500 and 600 are a good indicator of the direction that Axiom is headed. I can't help but imagine that more good stuff has to be coming in the future.

I'm holding out for a new full(er)-range center And surrounds.
Rich.









......but not too long please,.....us folks in the "Grey Posse" can't wait forever!

Hi Sutter and all

I use a modified center channel speaker with 2 Axiom 6.5"s, a Reference 3a de capo mm tweeter (and x-over letting the 6.5s run free), and a customized supertweeter flat to 40KHz. Love it.

I think a nice JM Labs center would work well with M60/M80 fronts.

My best friend has a big HT system with Parasound Halo Processor and amp deriving 3 DefTechs, a pair of QS8s and an Axiom EP500. The weak links? Definitely the DefTechs.

In reply to:

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Unless your room is HUGE I can't imagine three M60ti's up front wouldn't be enough. That's a LOT of speaker.

---

It isn't about not being enough, or what I need. If I decide to go after the 80's, it'll be simply because I can, that's all.

F107plus5,

As for the crossover, well I tend to go against the grain a little there. I tend to have mine set at 50hz, sometimes 80, just kind of depends.

Please explain to me why Def Te c speakers are not Audiophile speakers,and Axiom are.I switched from Axiom to Def Tec and I'm very happy.The VP 150 was my main reason for the switch.

"audiophile speaker" is a highly subjective label. There is no universal definition. What one person calls 'audiophile quality' another person will call 'crap'.

In reply to:

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Please explain to me why Def Te c speakers are not Audiophile speakers,and Axiom are.I switched from Axiom to Def Tec and I'm very happy.The VP 150 was my main reason for the switch.

---

I'll do my best, but I've never been too good and trying to explain things.

First let me point out, this hobby, and damn near everything surrounding it, is all very subjective. So don't take my opinions for anything more then what they are. They're just my opinions.

That said, it's true I probably should have chosen better words to use, other then to just come out and say they're not Audiophile speakers. I certainly do not find them to be, but others very well may. So, again, it's all very subjective.

I do not find Def Techs to come anywhere near the level or caliber of speaker that Axioms are. Not on the whole anyways. They simple just don't do nor offer everything Axioms do.

That said, they DO have their strengths, and they certainly have their advantages. One being their bipolor design. Now again you start diving into the whole subjective thing again, because the cold hard facts are, not everybody digs that bipolor design. Some love it, some hate it, it all pretty much boils down to what applications your using. If it's all or mostly HT, they really shine. Music is debatable. Some find Def Tech to do music well, others find them to do it poorly.

The bottom line here is, there is NO right nor wrong. It all boils down to personal taste and preference. I was very happy with Def Techs. I had a Def Tech system for years before discovering Axioms. So I'm not in any way bashing them or saying Def Tech sucks and Axioms rule! I do feel Axioms do rule though, I just don't feel Def Techs suck either.

Now you said you switched mostly due to the center channel. Well, this the right thread for that issue. This was/is the reason I left Axioms and switched back to Def Techs for a while. I don't find Axioms center channel to be all that great, and personally feel that compared to all their other speakers, they're down right a disgrace. That's just my opinion though, nothing more, nothing less. I simply don't feel they're up to par with the rest of the Axiom line.

It IS important that I note though, just because I don't find the VP100/150 to be up to par with the rest of Axioms speakers, does NOT mean I think they're garbarge either. They're better then a lot of center channels I've heard, they're also worse in some regards. It depends on what your picking on, or better put, analyzing. My biggest issue/complaint with the VP100/150 is, well, I haven't really been able to discribe that very well, or put that into words, but it just seems to lack something. Kind of like it doesn't have the umph that many other centers that I've had experience with has.

The imaging is excellent, the soundstage is fantastic, and the clarity is just outstanding, but it really lacks punch, substance, lower end, whatever. Now some will say, well that's what you have a subwoofer for. Well, my responce to that is, yes and no. I agree with that and I don't agree with that. But I can go on forever on this issue. So to wrap this up, I'll just say, I feel some improvements needs to be made to Axioms center channels. Perhaps a model with 6.5" drivers would be a good start, perhaps not, but I'd welcome it. Cause the bottom line is, it is NOT all about music for everybody. For many, it's about movies, home theater.

In the meanwhile, there's ways to work around this issue. I'll either go with another speaker in their line to serve as my center channel; Or I'll just buy off on the VP150 again, for I never found it to be down right terrible. I can use other equipment in my system to help compensate for what 150 lacks if deemed necessary.

Again, just my thoughts, just my opinions. Nothing more, nothing less. I could be wrong.



Sutter

Sutter, is your HT still in the same room as before? Many people have found their discontent with the VP150 was related to boundary effects.

I remember somebody saying that the Paradigm CC370 was a good tonal match.

I am personally very satisfied with my VP100.

Yeah, you know... maybe the VP100 is actually the better speaker. I never hear VP100 owners (me included) complaining about their speaker.

You know, Peter, you may be on to something here...

Plus, consider the probability that you, me and Ken are all "wrong" simultaneously.

Inconceivable!

Well, in my opinion, Peter very well might be on to something. I have owned both. I have had the VP100, and I have had the VP150. Going off memory, and it has been a while now, but if I recall, I did find the VP100 to be a little better then the 150. However I found them both to be lacking in the things I previously mentioned.

Don't get me wrong guys, I mean my gawd, please, I don't find either of these to be BAD center channels at all. As I have clearly pointed out, they are indeed much better then a lot of the center channels that I've had experience with. They just so happen to be not as good as a lot of other ones I've also had experience with. Truth of the matter is, you can say that with any darn speaker.

Be that as it may, it's irrelevant. It's irrelevant in the since that they're not anything that's going to stop me from making my return, and stay, to/with Axiom. I'll either make the best out of one of these cc's, or I'll simply go with one of their other speakers in the line for my cc.

I think, as a H/K owner, I might get more out of the VP100 than owners of recievers with all around crossovers. I have my VP100 set relatively high (100 Hz) and my QS4s set to very high (120 Hz) and my 50s set to 80 or 60, so I may get more of that oompfh. Or maybe I just haven't heard that many center channels...

All right. . . there is something that I am not getting here. I have the VP150 and I don't see its downfalls. Since when is a center channel the speaker that you look for to provide "punch". I listen to DVD audio discs and SACD as much as movies and I have never heard my 150 wimper in the least. I even have it crossed over at 60hz. (I know I must be an idiot according to specs, but I have listened to so many discs at absurdly loud levels and still have not had any troubles, noticable faults or weaknesses with my center channel). Are you guys putting it back on a shelf or something?

After all a center channels main purpose is to provide clear, accurate and audible dialoge from movies. Does it not do this extremely well. I have not had to set my center hot like most people seem to do just to be able to hear the dialoge. So what is the deal here.

I felt that my M22's had a deficiency in umph and thus upgraded to M60's which solved my problem. But I never said to myself, "man, I sure wish that I had more umph out of my center channel". But again all things are relative and perhaps that is just me. Happy and content. Thanks again Axiom.

Well if you don't see the downfalls then I say great, you have nothing to worry about then.

I've made my living as a musician for the past 15 years, I've also sold home theater equipment for a period of time. I've been in and out of studio's, and off and on stages. I've got very critical ears, and I've had a lot of experience with all sorts of brands and gear. I believe I'm more then qualified to note the stong points and down falls of a speaker.

Going off of your post, you seem to be coming across as if I'm bashing these speakers. I have not. I have stated what I don't like about them, I have also praised them. I have stated more then once they are great speakers that are better then a lot of center channels, but I also stated that they're worse then some center channels as well. But ya know, so what. That can be said about any darn speaker. Also, if I felt the 150 was THAT bad, I would have never made the decision to repurchase it. It's not that bad, in fact it isn't bad at all. There's just a few things I don't like about it. However those things can be easily corrected, for the most part.

I never knew this thread was going to take on such a turn. This thread wasn't suppose to be the VP100/150 thread. I created this thread to let my friends know that I was coming back, and simply stated my reasons why I left. I didn't expect this to turn into what it has. Some asked questions, I explained my reasons, and stated my opinions in responce to their questions. I'm truly sorry if I ruffled feathers, that was never my intention.

Well, to my friends, and those who know me, thank you all for the welcome, I greatly appreciate it. I'll be placing my order within the next day or two. I'm trying to decide on which finish at the moment. Once that's done, the order will be placed.


Sutter

I'm surprised I haven't seen more folks suggesting the "phantom center" solution. When we rearranged our living area we didn't have a good way to put the VP150 back up right away, so I set the system up "temporarily" in phantom center mode.

I have got to say that we've been very happy that way. In fact, "temporary" has become permanent, at least for now. We don't do any 5 channel music, so that may be a consideration. But for (stereo) music and movies we've been very happy using the M22s without a center. And this is actually a pretty large room.

Regards,
Rich

Suttercane,

Totally did not interpret your posts as any kind of bash on Axiom or their center channel speakers. You were simply posting your thoughts on the quaility of their product so believe me absolutely no offense taken and hopefully none given. I am certainly not questioning your critical listening capability either.

I am simply interested in this whole center channel topic as to what should be expected of this speaker. Nothing more.

Regards and welcome back

Ya know Guys, thinkin'about it for a minute....center channels are like hamburgers.

We all know what a good burger is, but I'll bet there are no two of us who take them with the same fixins.

(heck, most of us probably don't take them the same way twice in a row)

Personally, I like them with cheese.

(they're better with Swiss. No, BEST with Swiss)



Now then, as to what "I" expect(ok, would like)from a center channel: It's something that goes a bit lower than, say, 70hz accurately. The reason being, and here is where "Brainwashing" has come into play, is due to a few acticles I had read back when Home Theater was first coming into popularity.

1st. Commandment: "Center Channel Shall Be Full-Range due to the Lions Share of the Material Recorded Being Sent Through the Middle"

Naw,...I don't really know what that means, but I can take a good guess

2nd Commandent: "All front speakers should be as close to the same as possible"

If my mains comfortably play to 60hz, then, dang it, I'd like my center to at least do the same. I've seen shots of movie mixing labs, and they usually have the same three speakers across the front. Makes sense

"I" also like to have "All" of the voices in the center and not sneaking a bit into the sub. Used to was, when I had my system crossed at 80hz, some(few)voice components would sneak into the sub now and again. (very annoying)

So, what I want, is a center that contains all of the voices with excellent intelligability, that produces enough bass so that if an explosion happens in the center channel only, that it is firmly anchored with the other full-range material recorded, right in the center of the screen. I also want the center to sound "Exactly" like the mains. Not just a "Good Match"(yeah,...like the room is gonna always allow That)

Also, if I sit a few degrees off "on-axis" I don't want the center to sound like a different speaker than what I usually listen to.

(Actually, My M3 mates very well with my M50s and pretty well satisfies all "my" requirements)

So...

I'll have my burger with swiss cheese please, and a little wasabe/ranch dressing.

Aw,...add all the fixins'
Rich.

Your idea about the best cheese for burgers is full of holes.

Aw rats,....should have been more specific!!

If I get a choice, I'll ask for "Baby Wheel" Swiss!!

Much smaller holes....

.....but yeah.....still full of holes

SSSutherland,

No offense taken bud, and I'm sorry if my responce came across a little strong. It was a long night last night and a bad one at that, so by the time I got to your post, it just kind of rubbed me the wrong way.

Thanks for the welcome, I appreciate it man.


F107plus5,

Buddy now ya got me hungry. I like mine best with cheese too!



Sutter

With cheese, and as rare as I dare... which is usually medium these days, cuz' the media's got me all paranoid.

No, no, no.....you guys are all wrong. Burgers go best with BEER!!!

As I've said before, my VP150 works great for me. I would guess it's a matter of personal preference. For anyone with doubts the best thing to do is to get an audtion from someone on the list or take advantage of the 30 day return policy and try it out for yourself.

Yup, no doubt about it;.....speakers are like.....

......beer!!


You don't know what you like unless you've tried all types!!