Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Sub/AVR Volume and dB level settings?

Seems to me I have to options to achieve the 75dB SPL for setting up my 500 sub.

a) Set the Denon 2805 to 0dB for the sub channel like others and Alan have recommended. However, then the volume on the 500 has to be very low, around 5-6 o'clock position. The min setting is about 3-4 o'clock, so this seems like a waste of a setting for a 500 watt amp?

b) Set the volume on the sub around 7-9 o'clock, but then I have to turn the AVR down to about -10 or more to achieve the same SPL.

I would think the lower the AVR setting, the less strain and makes more use of the subs built in Amp. I guess I just don't understand the point of having a volume knob on the sub if you can't use it, what is the point of having the 500 watts then if you can use all of the potential.

Am I understanding all of this calibration stuff?

Sir Randy Quack

No matter what the seting is in the sub and AVR you will be using the the amps full potential. The signal from your AVR is no different than a signal from preamp to amp. The gain (volume) setting is there to match the multitude of different signals from different AVRS

The trouble with that is that if you set the signal on the receiver too low, then the sub will not get enough signal to auto power on. Perhaps a compromise, say -5 or something.

That is not an issue with the EP 500, it does not have a auto on feature. It is either always on or off.

Thanks guys, maybe one of these days I'll get this stuff. I just got back from calibrating everything again. I think the norm for SPL is 75dB's? Anyway, I put my meter on the 80hz position, and calibrated everything to about -4 on the meter, which would be 76dB's. With the EP500 volume on about 7 o'clock, the AVR has to be at -5dB to achieve SPL. Anyway, everything sounds so awesome, I can't wait to get carpeting and furniture down there, right now I have picnic chairs (the ones with cup holders) and some carpet remnants thrown around, it sounds sooooo good guys I can't believe it. The bass I'm getting out of my 60's matched with the 500 is unreal. I just went through both of my Queen greatest hits cd's at -5 to -10 dB's. I think I'm going to cry it sounds so good.

Now off to shop for last minute Xmas presents. Later

ps: anyone is free to make additional comments on this post, I can always learn more...

Well, whether it does or doesn't, I've seen this issue with an EP500. Maybe they have changed the design.

Aside from the "turn on" function (no sexual inuendos, now!), which, as you say, is not a factor with the 500, I believe it's desirable to have a reasonably strong signal being fed to the 500 so there is a satisfactory signal to noise ratio on that feed. I wouldn't be a bit surprised to find that -10 on the receiver's sub setting provides just that, but I just don't know.

Hey Randy,
I'm right there with ya. I have my PB12 barely to the 3rd notch and it shakes the room but I think I'm wasting all that power because it's set so low. Doesn't make sense to me but I can't imagine it being any stronger or louder!! But all that knob is being wasted.......

Charlie

Randy(and Charlie), as Rick mentioned, the setting of the level control on the sub(or a receiver too, for that matter)doesn't indicate what percentage of the available power is being used. It simply sets the desired sound level during calibration, in coordination with the sub output level setting on the receiver. Loudness is loudness, and an identical amount of power from the sub amp is being used, regardless of where a control setting happens to be. A given level can be reached either with a high setting on the receiver and a low setting on the sub or vice-versa. It generally doesn't make any difference which way it is(again, the exact same amount of power from the sub amp is being output), except on a sub with auto-on, a too low setting on the receiver might not output enough voltage to keep the sub amp "awake". On the other hand, some receiver sub outputs distort if set too high(e.g. above 0); so the general idea is to not have either control near one of their extremes, but otherwise don't worry about it.

Hi. I would like to relay my experience, although I don't have any answers. I bought an EP-500, 2 M60ti's, 2 QS-8's and the VP150 last April. At the time I had an inexpensive SONY 100W AV receiver. I was happy with the system over all. However, I was quite disappointed with the EP-500. For the amount of money I paid for it, it just didn't seem worth the price.

Now, I had the very same experience of setting the EP-500 to 75 db and the receiver SW channel at 0db; the volume on the EP-500 had to be turned way down (6-7 o'clock)to acheive this. But the worst part was that at these settings there was very little bass produced. I played with all the settings, but when the bass levels got higher the sound became somewhat distorted, if that's the right word. I was expecting a gut wrenching, window shaking experience for the money. Well, I got the windows to shake but, like I said, it was not a very satisfing sound.

More recently I purchased the Denon AVR-4806. Well, let me tell you my whole world changed. Everything is fantastic! But the reason I am writting is to tell you bout the EP-500.

I ran the Audyssey setup and it set the subwoofer to 24 ft (it is actually about 8 ft away from the sweet spot but I left it at 24 ft) and it set the level to -8db with the EP-500 at 9:00 o'clock. Still, no earth shattering bass. But to make a long story a little shorter, when I manually set the subwoofer channel to +2 I finally got the sound I had expected. Unbeilevable! The windows still shake, but somehow it just all mixes in as part of the overall awsome effect (at least for movies). I also changed the crossover frequencies for the VP-150 and QS-8's to the upper frequency of the "Freq Resp +/-3db (Hz)" given in the Axiom specs and I set the crossover for the 60's at 80 hz. By-the-way, I have an Iso-max Sub 1-RR transformer in between the AVR and the EP-500 (for ground loops).

Now I have some ideas, but I am not sure how to explain all this. One thing seems certain though, when it comes to the subwoofer, a soundmeter is worthless; use you ears!

I do have a very strong warning for anyone considering purchasing the EP-500: when the EP-500 is used to its fullest potential, you risk alienating everyone else that lives in your house. My system is in the basement of my house. The EP-500 makes noises upstairs that I do not hear downstairs. And it can make some serious house-cracking noises. My wife and son are not very happy with that. Oh well, you can't please everyone :-)

Jack,

It's not as I say about the auto turn on, it simply can not be a factor if it does not exists.

And I say, at least with the early models, it DID have an auto turn on. I have witnessed (and solved) the problem with an EP500 and a 3805. The 3805 was set to -12, and the sub would not turn on until the volume was blasted. Like I said, they may have made a design change, but I wouldn't really want to try it on a long term basis.

I am going by Axioms own instructions. At no time do they discuss an auto turn on. If there is then I stand corrected

Step 5:
ON/OFF AC POWER/VOLTAGE SETTING: Your subwoofer is supplied with a pop-out voltage regulator set for use with 100 - 120 volts from the A/C line. It can be easily removed and turned over to set your EP500 or EP600 to 220 volts from the A/C line.

Once you have made appropriate connections from the A/V receiver or preamp/processor to the EP500 or EP600 and set the voltage regulator to the proper voltage, find a nearby AC wall outlet and connect the main power cord to the three-wire socket at the bottom of the control panel. Move the power switch to the ON setting and the LED POWER indicator should glow Green. Leave the switch at the ON setting unless you go away for an extended period. Moving it to OFF will shut down all power to the subwoofer

I'm confused. Didn't you say that there is no auto turn on factor with the 500? All I said was that "as you said," there is no auto turn on factor. I was agreeing with you.

Ken, There well may have been a change, but I seem to remember that it was said the 500 and 600 are always on, drawing very little power when inactive. I can't say for a certainty, because my 500 is plugged into a timed outlet on my power center. When I turn off my receiver, all power to the 500 is turned off. So, my 500 actually IS off when not in use.

In reply to:

---

I'm confused. Didn't you say that there is no auto turn on factor with the 500? All I said was that "as you said," there is no auto turn on factor. I was agreeing with you.

---

I must have misinterpreted your post Jack, please accept my apology.

Guess we're going to have to rely on the kind auspices of the Axiom staff to resolve this one. Then again, the sub I am thinking of eventually got sent back because of other problems. So perhaps this was a symptom.

Note Gene DellaSala's comments re auto-on in his EP500 review .

OK, I'm obviously wrong. Makes the behavior of that sub really odd, though. Sorry, Wid.

Ken:
I don't see this as an argument, (but a discussion of a curiosity!), so I'll throw my two cents in:
I'm 95% sure I remember a couple of posts "way back when" where people were concerned about their sub not "turning on" and the suggestions of bumping up the receiver's sub level were successful in "waking up" the sub.

Can't say that I know it was a 500 that was being discussed those times, but I'll throw it out for what it's worth.

I'm not so sure you are wrong, Ken. Though it's a little confusing, based on what Gene had to say, it seems like we're BOTH correct.

"After several minutes of idle, I noted the EP500 back panel light remained illuminated green, indicating amplifier power was present. I questioned Axiom about this and they informed me there is no Auto On/Off feature on this sub, unless you utilize the 12V trigger connection. This was a concern to me at first until Axiom informed me the sub goes into auto mute mode when no signal is present, thus the power consumption is negligible since it’s a Class D amplifier design."

Hopefully someone will be able to clarify the difference between "Auto On/Off mode," and "auto mute mode." Regardless, if there is an "auto" mode of any sort, doesn't that imply the need of a signal to "wake" the sub from that mode? If so, then Ken is correct when he says too weak a signal may not "awaken" the sub. On the other hand, according to Gene, Wid and I are correct that there is no "auto on/off mode."

Well! I'm certaiinly glad we've cleared up THAT issue! DOH!!!!!

To further confuse the issue, this was added to Gene's article, as an edit, at a later date.

"In our investigative studies we actually discovered that there really isn't a true auto off on any powered subwoofer which doesn't have an independent DC trigger line. In reality most subs simply remove the connection between the power output devices and the subwoofer driver during the auto off state. But the power transformer and associated amplifier electronics are still active."

Hopefully, someone will translate THAT into English for me.

(There are some people I know that I wish had an "auto on/off switch." . This coment is directed at NO ONE on this forum. Honest Injun! )

John, Ajax, Wid, and everyone else, thanks for the info, it is starting to make sense.

So I have a few questions to see what is the norm for most people:

A) Sounds like it doesn't make a difference, but I'm curious if most people keep there sub volume(gain) lower with their AVR's levels higher(for ex. 0dB) OR have the sub volume set a little higher around 9 o'clock, and have the AVR very low, like -10dB's. Not that it wonders, now that I understand things a bit more, I was just curious.

B) Does everyone attempt to calibrate the sub to 75dB SPL with the other speakers, or a little higher? Where did this 75dB norm come from anyway?

Thanks troops...

This is from A Quick Overview of Home Theater Calibration on HTF.

"In a nutshell, Dolby specifies an ideal playback level for their theatrical soundtracks and for the mixing envirinments in which those soundtracks are created. So, unlike music, movies are technically created with a standard playback level in mind. Based upon this intended level, dialog and effects are mixed at very specific levels to offer similar sound levels across various dolby soundtracks.

This playback level is basically defined as 105db peak level from any single speaker in the dolby playback system. By using tones on VE or Avia- they are specifically defined to give you this playback level.

Since VE's test tones are exactly 30 steps below the maximum level - calibrating that tone to 75db of SPL in your room means you have calibrated your system to playback 105db when given a peak signal.

Similarly, since Avia's test tones are exactly 20 steps below the maximum level - calibrating that tone to 85db of SPL in your room means you have calibrated your system to playback 105db when given a peak signal.

So, if you calibrate using those tones, and their intended target level (75db for VE or 85db for Avia)- that position on your volume knob will be dolby's ref level, providing you with a system that is now calibrated to offer 105db peak output.

Most home users don't listen at dolby's specified levels- but often it is a good point of ref when seeking help or advice on forums such as this one."

-Vince

I have my sub set up at -3 on the receiver and the gain on the sub at the 9 o' clock position.

Thanks Rick, man I bet your system really rocks!!!

Randy, my H/T system is pretty much a budget system with the Hsu Ventriloquist a Hsu VTF 2 and an Onkyo 502. For what it is and the money spent it sounds pretty good. Now the stereo system is another story, I must say it indeed does rock pretty darn good. You can see my list of equipment (stereo) in my profile.

Owning a 350 and then going to a 600, the auto-on/off feature was one of the first noticeable items I detected...besides the physical differences, of course.

Where my 350 would automatically shut off when not in use and the power indicator light would glow red, the 600 stays green constantly, except if I manually turn the power switch off. The manual says to turn the 500/600 off only when going away for extended periods of time, which I take it as vacation or similar. It also states, 'The LED Power indicator glows green when it's on and Yellow indicating a fault'.

The power indicator light on my 600 has been green since the day I received and it has never failed to turn on once, whereas with my 350 I did notice a time or two I would turn the volume up a tad to 'excite' the power to the sub. This 600 is a very remarkable sub in all respects, indeed.

Brother "Rick" Bob, can you provide your settings on the volume on your sub and AVR or seperates?

Right off the top of my head Randy I do believe the AVR is set to -10db and the sub is set to 7:30 - 8:00. I'll have to double check the AVR though.

Actually Randy I have the sub setting on my AVR set at -7 DBs, I had to go look.

Thanks Rick, I appreciate you going out of your way to check that for me, especially during this freezing weather. Wid can relate... brrrrrrrrr

Heck ol Rick would freeze to death up here right now, it's 11dergees with a wind chill of -5. Looks like it's gonna be a looooooooooooong coooooooooooooold one

Randy that 7:30 - 8:00 position on the 600 isn't anything set in stone, I have a bad habit of playing with that control at times...usually that would be the max setting.

11? As in 11 degrees *above* freezing? I'd die if it ever got below 60 degrees *above* freezing here...you guys need to turn the heat up on those subs a little, that will heat things up a bit!

I'm running the 2 (non co-located) EP500's at 6 o'clock each. And the receiver sub level at -6 dB. This is a little hot from reference however.

I will tell you what I read many times over in other forums. Many people keep their AVR sub level at 0 or in the negative. Some receivers introduce distortion into the signal when the sub level on the receiver gets into the positive. If you put the sub level in your receiver too low, you run the risk of the auto on feature not waking up. In general if you put your sub at -5 (in a -10 to +10 possible settings) you should have the best of both worlds. If you look on SVS website, it is actually what they recommend for these same reasons. Of course with the EP500 auto on is not an issue, and with most modern receivers, distortion shouldn't be an issue, but if you have the option of being at -5 on your receiver and adjust your sub level on the sub from there, why not do it just to be safe.

Actually there is a way to "power-down" the EP-500 when you turn off the AVR. You need to connect a trigger-out from the AVR to the trigger-input on the EP-500. When the AVR is OFF the light on the back of the EP-500 turns yellow. When the AVR is ON the light turns green.

Maybe the engineers at Axiom will tell us exactly what this does in terms of power to the EP-500.

"To live outside the law you must be honest."

"POWER INDICATOR: The LED Power indicator glows Green when it’s on and Yellow indicating a fault"

I thought the green light means power on and no faults. Amber light means fault or no signal.

The amp is always on unless you flip the switch to turn it off.

OK. But see my email and the reply to Axiom:

Hi>
I have an EP-500. I have been using the trigger plug on the back of the sub to connect a trigger signal from my AVR. When the AVR is off, the light on the sub turns amber, when the AVR is turned on the light on the sub turns green. I thought I read something at one time to suggest this was proper. But now as I read more, I am thinking that this is not correct at all. It seems that this plug-in is for a trigger signal out from the sub NOT into the sub. Can you explain this to me. And do you think I did any damage to the EP-500 by doing this? Thanks for your help. Maret
------------------------------------


Hi Maret,

After verification with our engineering department, I can reassure you. You have connected your EP500 the proper way and it is functioning exactly as it should.

Thanks again for your e-mail! Please do not hesitate to contact me directly anytime - my contact information is below - or call the Axiom toll-free line at 1-866-244-8796 - any of our Audio Experts would be pleased to help.

Happy Holidays Maret!

JC
Jean-Claude Benoît, ISF
Axiom Audio Expert
jc@axiomaudio.com
1.888.249.5064 (direct)
Read about me: http://www.axiomaudio.com/JC.html www.axiomaudio.com Request ID 7487216

Are you an Axiom AudioFile? Sign up for the free monthly Axiom Newsletter! http://www.axiomaudio.com/newsletter.html

:-) M60ti VP150 QS8 EP500 AVR-4806

"But to live outside the law, you must be honest.
I know you always say that you agree."

Axiom's reply is all you need.

Green means the sub is receiving the trigger on (or is getting signal). Amber means no signal (trigger off). The amp in the sub is still on (it doesn't go off unless you switch it off).

Hi:
Actually, Love is all you need.

See the email from Axiom below .
Hi Maret,

Ça va très bien, merci !

The trigger puts the amp in a sleeping mode, reducing power consumption next
to nothing.

Joyeux Noël et Bonne Année, Maret !

jc

Bienvenue
----- Original Message -----
From: "Maret Panzenbeck" <maphiker@charter.net>
To: <jc@axiomaudio.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 5:16 AM
Subject: RE: Axiom Audio Response to Your Request


Hi CV:

Ca va? Thanks for researching this for me. Can the engineers tell me exactly what the trigger setup from the AVR to the EP-500 does? Am I decreasing power consumption by the EP-500? Merci. Joyeux Noel!

Maret


Maret Panzenbeck
11 Hawthorne Hill Rd.
Newtown, CT 06470
maphiker@charter.net


-----Original Message-----
From: jc@axiomaudio.com [mailto:jc@axiomaudio.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 10:22 AM
To: maphiker@charter.net
Subject: Axiom Audio Response to Your Request



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