Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater M22's or M60's?

I'm putting together my HT set-up, and I'm trying to decide what to get. Do I go with the M22's or are the M60's worth twice the money. I will be matching either speakers to a HSU VTF-2 sub, with the VP150 center and the QS8 surround.

I want the best 2-channel and surround sound I can get out of my speaker set-up. My HT room is 13x16x8. Are the M60's really going to give me much more on the low end compared to the M22's, keeping in mind I'll have a sub for either set-up. Or should I take the money saved on the M22's and put it towards a good uni (DVD-A/SACD) DVD player?

So I think I have the space for the M60's. My only concern is will I really be missing some great sound by going with the M22 instead of the M60.

i've been in contact with you before, and the invitation still stands. sounds like you might have buyers'remorse if you don't get the 60's. come listen before you buy.
dan

I know lots of people here say, "Get the M22s and a good sub", but IMHO the bass from a sub isn't the same as that from good tower speakers. I use a sub with my M60s and get bass which is both low and articulate. The sub alone (an EP350) couldn't possibly do such a good job of handling ALL of the bass. The sub just isn't as good as the smaller drivers in the M60 at those higher frequencies.

That may be true BillWill, but as you said, you have the M60's and still have a sub. I think you'll get a better sounding setup with M22ti's and a Hsu sub, than you will the M60's alone, no?

Unless you're in a really big room, budget wise it just seems to make more sense to go the M22/sub route than the M60/sub route.

I have M22s with Hsu VTF-2, VP150, QS4s in my setup. My room is just a bit smaller than yours. This combo sounds wonderful, both for 2 channel and especially for HT. I find it hard to believe that the 60s can match the VTF-2 for HT effects. Music - maybe the 60s would be better, but suspect not for HT.

What I meant was: M60s w/ a sub would be better than M22s w/ a sub (that was a brilliant post), not that M60s produce bass comparable to that of a subwoofer. Obviously $ could be a factor, but I would rather spend $ on my mains than a sub. Costco has a KLH sub for $100. I'm sure it sucks in comparison, but if all you need is a little bass accent and the occasional boom, wouldn't that do for now?

Heck yeah...if you've got the money and the space, get a Hsu AND the M60's. But if money is an issue (it is for most of us!) I say M22 and Hsu VTF-2.

I had a cheap Yamaha YST-SW60 subwoofer for nearly 10 years. When I made the jump to my VTF-2, it was like night and day. Personally I would rather go without a sub, than buy a cheap one again.

Though if you've got $100 to blow, it might be fun to get yourself used to a crappy sub, and then buy a Hsu. The difference is astonishing! Music is WONDERFUL with my Hsu, the Hsu really disappears. It honstly sounds like if have full range coming from my little M22's - and the HT punch is just fun.

Some friends were over watching the new T2 dvd the other day...when the first shotgun blast went off, you could feel it hit you. It was really fun!

Gaah! Ick ick ick ick.

No offense, but I would hesitate to use such a crappy sub with any speakers. I'd rather have quality of bass (use M60s, no sub) until I could afford a sub.

What? KLHs aren't any good? I heard they're made in China by the same guys who put together Rockets. I was thinking about getting 5 of them to replace my EP350.

Hmm...I WAS joking, but actually that might be pretty cool for some movie effects. Anybody actually ever hear one of those KLH subs?

BigWill has a good point. The bass from a sub isn't the same as from good towers. In fact, it's not even close in a large room. (My experience is comparing the M22ti to the M60ti in a large room with a 10" subwoofer crossed over appropriately for each speaker). The bass from the M60s is much tighter, and gives much more presence and dynamic range than bookshelf speakers + a sub could ever hope to reproduce in a large space.

That being said, room size and budget are big considerations. If you're in a small to moderately-sized room and/or on a strict budget, an excellent bookshelf (such as the M22s) + a good sub may be more appropriate. If you're in a large room and you already have a sub, then the floor standing speakers are certainly the way to go if you are willing to pay the price differential.

In short, it's not a one-size-fits-all solution, but depends on your room size and budget.

Aaah! You're all making me want M60s instead of the M22s that will meet the WAF standard and I can possibly afford!

Hey, don't drag me into your frustration.

I say get the M22's and a Hsu...that's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

I would still agree with spiffnme. I personally think it is much harder to build a floorstander that does a great job of balancing mids and highs with the bass. A great bookshelf/mini monitor with a proper musical tight sub can best a floorstander. Why I think that is?
A floorstander is one box. The box has to double duty in the mid and high department as with a bass department. Some speakers I have listened too do exhibit issues with either the bass being overbearing the mids and highs or the bass lacking to improve mids or highs. Generally the bigger floorstanders tend to color the sound.
In a scenerio where you separate the mids and highs from the bass you get each box to specialize in each range. This specialization you can extend the mids and highs appropriately and dial in the sub to the proper volume levels having the best of all ranges. A M22 partnared with a VTF or HSU sub can cover a broader range (18hz - 22Khz) than the M60 (37hz-22Khz).
I have demoed tonnes of floorstanders and mini monitors. By far I have yet to hear a floorstander that can best a better sound stage depth and clarity of a mini monitor. If you want ummppffhhh go for a floorstander. If you want to hear the different placements of the singer in respect to the drummer at the back, the bass player on the left forward and the violin player on the right between the main center singer and the back drummer go for a mini monitor and a fast, tight, musical sub. I find mini monitors tend to image better.

Saturn

Oooh Saturn.
That post is just loaded with presumptions (comments withheld).

Opinion accepted, although heartily disagreed with.

Over the past 6-9 months I've listened to literally dozens of speakers. A bunch before I bought my M22's, as research going into the purchase, and a bunch afterwards, trying to reassure myself that I did indeed make the right decision. (I did!)

I listened bookshelfs and floorstanders. 9 times out of 10 I preferred the sound of the bookshelf. And everytime it was for the same reason. Details. Nearly every floorstanding speaker I heard was flat, and dull in the high end. Most also sounded a bit bloated and loose in the low end. Granted not ALL floorstanders sounded like this. The Energy Veritas 2.4 floorstanders sounded quite nice. But they're $3600 a pair!!!

Dollar for dollar you'll never convince me that a floorstanding speaker can sound as good as a bookshelf/sub combo. If you've got the cash, sure - buy a GREAT floorstander and add a GREAT sub to it, and you'll beat the sound of my bookshelf/sub, but it's going to cost you.

In the case of Axiom, it sounds like that may only cost you an additional $400, but that's still $400, and I doubt the difference is all that earth shattering between the M22/Hsu combo and the M60/Hsu combo.*

*Assuming a small/medium roomsize. If you're in a larger room, physics dictate larger speakers.

okey
I know I know....but that my personal opinion

enlighten me sir

I have no enlightenment to give really, just a different perspective.
If you prefer bookshelves over floorstandings, then so be it.
Just to say that the mini monitors broadly have more detail though is very presumptious since their are a TON of speakers out there.

Lets say we consider the M60 vs. the M22.
The M60 is virtually identical to the M22 except larger. I've auditioned them both and have a strong impression of how they both sound for music and HT (in my basement).
So is the M22 really more detailed or is there a sound difference between the two that is common to only one speaker that makes it seem this way?
Same tweeters, same mid range woofer.
The M60 just has more bass from 2-6" woofers while the M22 derives its bass from one 5.24".
So perhaps one thought here is that mini monitors sound more detailed because they tend to lack lower end volume which can muddle (for lack of a better word) the mid range and high end.
Think of it as turning down the bass knob and turning up a treble knob. Does that not make the sounds more 'clear'?
But if so, then how would adding a subwoofer to the mini monitor actually sound better than the floorstanding?
Would the heavy low end from the subwoofer not also 'muddle' the same mids and highs of the mini monitor?
If anything, it should muddle it even more so since most subs typically have drivers larger than those on floorstandings. In adding a subwoofer, especially ones with larger drivers (ie. ep350 with a 12" driver) cannot produce bass as tight or fast as the smaller M60 woofers. As much as people would like to say their subs are tight and fast, the larger the driver, the greater the physics against it moving at anything but 'fast'. Bass is a slower cycling, longer physical wavelength. We can't change that into fast unless we were the almighty.

I certainly prefer the M60 alone for music. I find the subwoofer for music to be overbearing or sludgy and simply does not play as accurate bass in the higher low-end spectrum (say 50Hz to 200Hz) nearly as well as a 6" driver on a floorstanding model.
That is my opinion and preference.

The subwoofer for our purposes is best suited for HT applications, but with a FEW musical exceptions which include pipe organs and some other low note instruments (like goblin drums in LOTR). However, we are talking about the VERY low end and small range of sound here (0-30Hz).

As for the argument of 'removing duties from low end of floorstanding to 'specialized' units', it just doesn't make sense. Why would anyone even expect their speaker to be having a problem reproducing bass sounds at all?
Is their receiver/amp perhaps not feeding it enough power because certainly the speaker is designed to play its bass just as well as it does high end or mid range.
Speakers should not change their sounds just because there is a perception that the user has 'removed a burden' from the system. If your system is robust enough to provide enough proper power, then there is no such requirement to have a 'burden' removed.

As it is, using a subwoofer, a distinct unit, only adds to the excess setup issues in finding a location or settings that work properly in all situations.
Could you imagine if the M60 tower was actually 4 independant 'specialized' units, all requiring placement to tweak for a good sound?
I think that would drive people absolutely mad.
Already this idea of a 10.2 system has Semi_On in a tizzy.

All that being said, some people very much prefer the heavyness of a sub into the higher ranges.
Do i think an M22-sub combo beats out an M60?
Depends on how you like your bass and it depends on music vs. HT.
Does an M60-sub combo beat out an M22-combo?
The answer is still the same. It depends on how you like your bass (well done or medium rare) and with music (hip hop dance or light guitar and choir vocals) vs HT.

I agree with you Chess wholeheartedly.
But...but... Why would you say a sub bass would overpower/muddle the mid and highs? On the contrary on my personal experience the sub still blended well with the mini monitor. I still heard the detail and depth clearly present in the mini-monitor and the sub covered the rest of the lower frequecy. This is based on some 8 inch and some 6.5 inch driver subwoofers. Yes they are relatively small but the bass was seemless. When playing music I didn't even equate the sound coming from the sub area. The bass was all around.

With a floorstander some of the mid frequency is shared by the woofers. By offloading the lower frequencies 80hz and lower to the sub the woofers would concentrate on a shorter range of frequencies. So upper bass and lower mid range frequencies are more distinct(don't quote me on that).
Wouldn't the same principle apply to mini monitors? But doesn't having a smaller box decreases the chance of colouration?

In reply to:

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Why would you say a sub bass would overpower/muddle the mid and highs?

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I was referring to bass sounds in general, when present, can overpower some of the mids and highs making a speaker sound 'less detailed' than one that does not produce the lower end frequencies as much (such as the bookshelf vs tower).

In reply to:

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On the contrary on my personal experience the sub still blended well with the mini monitor. I still heard the detail and depth clearly present in the mini-monitor and the sub covered the rest of the lower frequecy. This is based on some 8 inch and some 6.5 inch driver subwoofers. Yes they are relatively small but the bass was seemless

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I never said that the subwoofers cannot be integrated into a seamless sound but that setting it up properly takes more effort and often times is never perfectly achieved. This is because the subwoofer is an individual component separate from the main speaker which has its own distinct influence on sound off of ITS specific location to walls, furniture, etc.

In reply to:

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With a floorstander some of the mid frequency is shared by the woofers. By offloading the lower frequencies 80hz and lower to the sub the woofers would concentrate on a shorter range of frequencies.

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Crossovers will dictate what range of sound is MOST handled by a particular driver. The M60 has two 6" woofers for bass such that the midrange is handled by its 5.25" driver (same as the M22).
Alan noted some time back the crossover points in the M60/M80 are 200Hz and 3.4Khz.
With 2-6" woofers, do you think that the 5.25" midrange driver is at all putting out sound down in the 80Hz range?
I doubt it.
I think its frequency curve has trailed off below the 200Hz crossover and is probably done making any sound by the 150Hz level. This means you have TWO 6" drivers available to make the bass sounds from 200Hz and less and even assist the midrange as they roll off above the 200Hz crossover point.

So again, offloading the 6" drivers from doing what they were designed to do will not help the 5.25" driver to help it do its job any better.
In that case, what would be the point in even including the 2-6" drivers in the M60 in the first place?
Axiom could just tell their customers to pair it with a sub instead if they want bass and possibly increase their overall sales.
Now that would be unfair eh?


If you want to do a test of the M60 vs a sub sound, you would of course first have to get the M60.
Time to 'upgrade' maybe?

Then, take a test tone cd and try out some tones in the 200Hz to 100Hz range using JUST the subwoofer and then JUST the M60 to play the note.
The 'tightness' b/w the two units is quite distinctive and i find the M60's smaller drivers (compared to my ep350) don't linger nearly as long with the sound note. This is about as fast or accurate i could ever expect low frequency sounds to get.
Now play some low notes in the 25Hz range and compare the two speakers again. I think this time you will find that the subwoofer shines at the low rumble while the 'tight and fast' smaller M60 drivers now struggle greatly.
Larger drivers = lower bass notes but slower with higher low frequency sounds.
Smaller woofers= faster, tighter bass for higher low frequency sounds but VERY decreased volume with low frequency sounds.
After all, bass is about moving air and low frequency notes is about moving ALOT of air (remember the port chuff?). The higher on the frequency scale you go, the LESS air you need to move so i believe the 6" drivers are better at reproducing more accurate musical notes in the sound range typical of music (some instruments excepted).

Chesseroo is dead-on in his post. I originally ordered the M22s but ended up with the M60s for the reasons he describes. That being said, there are legitimate reasons some might prefer the M22s (e.g. room size and budget).

Okey I stand corrected again.

Thanks Chess for the insight. I'll try to emulate the test you prescribed.


But I'll still keep my Kimbers.

Saturn,
There is certainly no right or wrong about preferring a sub and mini monitor combo over floorstandings. Some people do prefer the bass of a subwoofer for music, but i'm just not one of them. The M22 and a sub provides an excellent sound.
I would recommend the M22 and a sub for HT users or for a smaller room whole heartedly.

We originally auditioned the M22 for this very purpose before deciding to also try out the M60. One of our biggest turn offs was the need for stands for the M22s, yet another piece of HT furniture.
As you have seen from my past photos, the furniture in our basement does not receive a great deal of budget funds at the moment...this was an obvious problem.