Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion The Water Cooler ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS DEBATE QUESTION

This is a question for all the people, (I don't mean on this board) who keep saying:
" illegal immigrants only do jobs americans won't do"

IF illegal immigrants only do jobs americans won't do.......and, we make them all "americans".....THEN, who will do those jobs?

(I saw littleb's reply in the wwyd post, and thought it might be a interesting topic here.)

Nice....

I like the comment from a Democrat senator ro congressman or something (sorry for the bad reference), who offered $50 an hour to ANY American that would pick lettuce for an entire season. He said that no American would do it.

Now, I am not using the word "Democrat" negatively, just as a way to try to spark some people's memory as to who that guy was, because I know a lot of people who would jump at the chance to make $50 an hour.

I hope that this thread can stay constructive for everyone, thus the reason I want to say "hey" to my Democrat friends even though I vote and support most Republican ideas. We are all wanting the same end goal, a safe and prosperous USA.


Thanks LT61 for a good question to spark some thoughts..

What if, God forbids, the US economy sinks into a depression as or worst than the one during the 1930s. It’s probable that a good number of legal unemployed people would set eye on jobs that ‘americans won't do’. What would happen then? What would make an employer hire legal instead of illegal employees if not the government? The illegals have the upper hand since they may work for less than the minimum wage.

50 bucks an hour to pick lettuce?sign me up and ill get an illegal immigrant to sub out the work from me for 15 bucks an hr.

Here's some food for thought:

If you check out the site of Harry S. Dent, one of the formost economic forcasters in the US today (check out the Key Concepts section), you'll see that we (US and Canada) are indeed in for a depression in 10 to 15 years. This is because of the huge, aging baby boomers withdrawing their spending power from the economic marketplace. The next two generations are both smaller than the previous one, meaning that the economic base is diminishing, rather than growing. This is the first time in US history that such a generational situation exists. If we want to lessen this economic forecast, we'll need all the (legal) immigrants we can get to expand the economic base. It's unlikely the population will expand sufficently to prevent the depression, though.

PM me if you're seriously interested in what I'm doing to insulate myself from that depression.....

I just want the borders secured... give all who are here already a path to being legal is fine with me (as long as its not a freebie ahead of those trying to come here legally), hell they are virtually American's anyway...

Congress, get this done already geez, it's not rocket science.

A bit OT, it is interesting to me how poorly we are looked at from rest of the world yet so many people want to come here.

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in for a depression in 10 to 15 years. This is because of the huge, aging baby boomers withdrawing their spending power from the economic marketplace.

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Now I don't mean to pick on the boomers here, but every article I read names every generation after them... Gen X was the kid of the boomers (now 40s)... then GenY, New Boomers, Zoomers, blah blah, etc... somehow they tie everyone in from the age of 20-45 into a demographic they need to prove a point. (Reader's Digest did it this month in a pandering "oh, these kids entering the workforce now that don't know their place!" article)

All the boomers I know got into sectors that now require 10 years experience and an alphabet soup of letters after someone's name by showing up at the right time and taking down the help wanted sign (usually with barely a high school education)... their companies trained them, they worked up the ranks, then turned around and burned the ladder behind them... busting the Unions that got them there, implementing hiring outside the company, outsourcing to foreign lands, privatizing Crown corporations, and all the other general BS that's propping up their top-heavy posteriors and destroying the economy. Everyone says it's the guy on the floor running a milling machine making $45K a year that's sinking their industry... he's a bum on the rod compared to the bum on the plush in the office pulling his "only" $175K a year, with a few mill in stock options for sweating up his suit collar with grease stains trying to wrap his head around with of these peons to downsize first.

Maybe it's just my personal experience on the planet... but where are these boomers spending their money that is going to cause this depression when they quit spending it? I see them at Wal*Mart and dollar stores... finding any way they can to continue giving back nothing to an economy they've taken so much from, pinching every nickel until it farts pennies to make sure they stay ahead of the next guy.

So stores that sell Elvis busts and garden gnomes as loss-leaders, take heed!

As for the rest of us, maybe the retiring/dying off of the boomers is just one final flush in what they're been squeezing out for the past 30 years.

Bren R.
Any resemblance between Douglas Coupland and the author is strictly coincedental. Never even read one of his books.

A few more points to ponder:

I find it hard to believe ANYONE would be in favor of the current, out of control, immigration situation.
That would mean that one would be (in reality) in favor of the exploitation of immigrants by the MANY unscupulous employers, who hire them for "under the table", and low wage jobs.

Another point I don't think people "get", is the fact that if there was another country that offered the same ease of entry, the same opportunities, they would be flooding into that country. (it's NOT for the love of this country)

Lastly, from what I can see, the majority of these 'NEW" immigrants just want to be able to come, and go as they please, and work, and live where they choose....they don't WANT to be citizens of this country. (unless we say they have to leave).
They ARE NOT INTERESTED in our culture, or customs.

IT would be much better if instead of sneeking into the USA, they would stay home, (and protest the corruption that is causing them to leave in droves)....and fix their own countries....instead of running away.

There is much, much, MORE to being an American, than just showing up here.

An intresting quote from 1907.

Theodore Roosevelt on Immigrants and being an AMERICAN

"In the first place we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the man's becoming in very fact an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag, and this excludes the red flag, which symbolizes all wars against liberty and civilization, just as much as it excludes any foreign flag of a nation to which we are hostile...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

Theodore Roosevelt 1907

To quote Michael Burkett (aka Fat Mike of NOFX)

No longer svelte, they gotta punch new holes in the Bible belt
They've blown out the fire under the melting pot, the red blood of America is starting to clot
No compromise, no sight thru others' eyes, they're just flies spreading pieces of sh*t
You gotta emigrate, stop living in hate, what makes this country great is dwelling on either side

They don't want visitors in Jesusland
They want life bland and canned in the fatherland

Makes me glad to live in a country with a multicultural society. My neighbours on one side call to each other across the yard in Polish, a language I don't understand, but I can tell the difference between "Why did you leave this in my way" and "These flowers look great here." On the other side, I hear the neighbour and his sister yelling back and forth in machine-gun German too fast for me to comprehend. Two doors down in either way are Herb, another German immigrant and Steve, who was born in Kiev. Strangely enough, even without the pressure to intergrate, assimilate or segregate - all four of them fly the maple leaf somewhere in the yard. I'm the only one born here and I don't.

I'm guessing suppertime here smells a lot better than in Teddy Roosevelt's "One language. One flag. One people" view. Kinda reminds me of another famous political figure with a funny moustache's vision.

Bren R.

And, "over the top he goes!"

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Lastly, from what I can see, the majority of these 'NEW" immigrants just want to be able to come, and go as they please, and work, and live where they choose....they don't WANT to be citizens of this country. (unless we say they have to leave).
They ARE NOT INTERESTED in our culture, or customs.

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That is likely the case with the first generation of immigrants -- the same as was the case with practically ALL first generation immigrants. To single out the current wave as unique from all the past generations is being willfully ignorant.

Both my parents were not born in the United States. They entered the country as youths when their parents (my grandparents) came to the US to escape the "unfavorable" conditions in Eastern Europe. My grandparents do speak English, but I wouldn't say they've become Americanized. In fact, they often complain about American culture.

Now, I, the child of two immigrants, am decidely American. It's the children of immigrants, and their subsequent children, that make up the majority of the US population. It's human nature to look fondly upon the culture in which you grew up and spent most your life.

Ummm, nice Godwin there, Bren.

I'm over the top?

Quick rundown of the messages here:
LT61 - If we make these immigrants legal, who will do their jobs. (A call to keep a group of people in the margins so they'll keep doing gruntwork for little pay)

nickbuol - I'd work for $50 an hour, oh, and a shout out to my Democrat friends, no hate! (no, the quote was you'd have to FINISH a season... try to find someone that would!)

JaimeG - if the economy tanks, we may need these jobs held open for legals (again, keep the illegals in the margins doing it until a "real" American needs the job)

rcvecc - I'm assuming was a joke.

VikingShips - talks about baby boomers, then puts in a line to contact him about his future plan (Amway? HerbalLife?)

INANE - wants a secure border, and a way for immigrants to become legal (Ben's from the heartland and so far has had the most progressive answer yet? I may have to rethink my views!)

BrenR - boomer rant.

LT61 - Immigrant exploitation. Not love for the US, just a chance at a job. (no far so good) Stay out of my country and fix your own. You gotta live like an American to be an American (well, you WERE doing well)

HomeDad - patriotic quote from a dead president when such xenophobic rantings were considered okay. (back when you could hang a sign that said "No Blacks" in your establishment, is this really relevant today? Sad part is, it is. Even contains the words Liberty, Flag, and Allegiance... put all that on a triple word score! This is pretty much a manifesto for the melting pot culture - drop whoever you were to be an American, your culture stops at our border)

BrenR - I point out the similarities between two well-known historical figures in an attempt at showing that maybe what "Ol' Hickory" spewed past his walrus-stache may have been proven 30 years later to be a pretty awful way to run a country.

And yet you look past all the winking and nudging that maybe it's not so bad to have Mexicans dying from pesticides picking strawberries at slave wages so "real" Americans don't have to... and pick on me for daring to mention the "Big A"... would it be better if I'd picked Mussolini's "All within the state. Nothing outside the state. Nothing against the state."? Is it just that the German guy with the bad mustache is such a lightning rod? Too easy?

Bren R.

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Ummm, nice Godwin there, Bren.

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Never heard the term before. I stand behind my use of a historical figure immediately recognizable as the worst case scenario of what national pride, patriotism and umbrage towards others besides their own leads to.

I'd take the moniker if I'd spouted "OmGz!!12! US is Hilter!!11one!!"

Bren R.

Bren, posting a quote because it is interesting is not analogous to agreeing with said quote.
Like many Americans I am of mixed culture, from my great granparents fleeing a country whose dictator did not allow the freedoms they could enjoy in this country, my wife is a mixed first generation and our kids are basically a mix of everything.
We are all Americans and proud of it, but we also enjoy the mixed diversity and freedoms that this country still offers.
Perhaps that may change in the future, better or worse I don't know.

Time to re-read my first post Bren,....I was simply showing the flaw in the logic of those who believe that rubbish.

Also, you forgot your usual "rednecks" references.

Actually " Ol Hickory" was Andrew Jackson's nickname not Roosevelt.

This is a touchy subject indeed, at one time pretty much everyone in the US was an immigrant and escaping from something somewhere to look for a better life. Now life has become a lot more complicated. I can see both sides of the fence and frankly it's difficult to decide where to stand.

the key word here is illegal,breaking the law from day 1 of your arrival and working for cash,sending it back to their countries hurts our country,so if i have to live by the rules-so should they
i have no problem with any race or color but this country has laws to follow ,and if you dont like them or follow them,then you should face the judge like everyone else
and if the laws and rules are so bad..then why do they come?

So in each case, neither of you were agreeing with what you quoted?

Again, hard to tell when someone is giving a quote without bias on one side or the other of it or when they're just too cowardly to take responsibility for what they're saying. (to be clear here, HomeDad, I'm putting you in the former camp) (edit: and LT61 - in neither camp on this issue, I should be clear on that!)

And LT61 - no need for the word redneck... there was no "my country, right or wrong", mention of Nascar as a national sport or talk of guns, gas and god. Easy on how you paint me... thinking me a pinko doing chainsaw surgery is vastly underestimating me.

Bren R.

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Actually " Ol Hickory" was Andrew Jackson's nickname not Roosevelt.

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I stand corrected...

Bren R.

There is only one part of that quote that I could agree with
"he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin."
Sadly in certain parts of this country and other countries, that is not always the rule but more of an exception.

I think the extremists in our country (USA) get far too much face time when the reality is most folks are really quite moderate. Granted all those moderate people are going to lean a bit "right" or "left" but neither one is really anywhere near the stereo typical folk you see on TV spouting off their garbage.

To make matters worse its an election year so EVERYTHING has to be some damn specticle of life or death.

This immigration issue really seems pretty simple. We have one side that wants a giant wall and to send 12million folks home. The other wants to allow everyone to come in and let those alreay here stay.

Ever heard of a compromise? Build the wall and allow those already here to stay. Ya nobody gets exactly what they want but the other option is to have nothing happen, and nobody seems to want that.

Nick,

With all due respect to you and anyone else of the conservative ilk, I have to say that I believe the administrations vow to send the national guard to the border is a knee jerk reaction probably being driven to improve some weak poll numbers. I feel you have to deal with the causes, which I see as the people who employ these people and the Mexican government itself. I say that anyone who employs illegal immigrants needs jailtime and some heavy fines. If the residents of Mexico were making a living wage in their home country, they wouldn't be leaving their homes to make $3/hr in this country. If the Mexican government won't deal with this willingly, maybe a mass boycott of Mexican products would do the trick. I say this after watching the GF purchase a Mexican vacuum cleaner. I won't say it didn't bother me, though, because it did. I think we, as Americans, find ourselves in sort of a vicious circle. On one hand, we want to purchase products which are values, but in the back of our minds we realize that the workers that allow our purchasing power to expand are being exploited.

geez, I get slammed by BrenR, whom I've never had a dispute with and always have openly welcomed any and all comments, then LittleB who, just because I stated a political association, shoots off in some direction stating this and that which I never even referenced in my original post. LittleB, I never said anything but I want a safe border and the $50 an hour quote. I agree that sending troops will not solve the problem, never made any remote statement that it would, but it is a start of something, and Status Quo will just keep festering the problem. Then you mention that the Republicans are doing it to gain votes, yet the "other" party (again, my apologies to Democrats here) leaders are doing everything that they can to avoid any conflict. Hillary Clinton states one day that we need to stop illegal immigration and "punish" those illegal immigrants that are here, then the very next day, in front of a group with large Mexican immigrant numbers, says that she wants to grant them all citizenship. Flip, flop... Sounds like Kerry. Just make a stand on something, right or wrong, I think that the ENTIRE political system in the US could get headed in the right direction if the politicians would quit playing politics, and get back to focusing on what is good for this country. Democrats make mistakes, Republicans make mistakes, even Green Party folks make mistakes, I just wish that we all (including myself) would just get back to supporting our government that is in power and help to eliminate the political BS that we all deal with. The US can not take it much longer.

I have some very strong viewpoints on what needs to happen with the US, politics, and the people living here, but I think that I need to jump out of this thread and stay clear. I just hate to see all of us, who have come here for our love of audio, get torn because of political or legal viewpoints. Just remember that I still think highly of all of you, but again, I'm stepping back before I (a very calm guy) gets pissed off or pisses someone else off more than has already been done.

Nah, Nick, you weren't slammed... promise!

I didn't refer to you by any name of a body part covered by one's bathing suit.

I do always wonder why these threads get started (no finger point, LT61, promise!)... we've seen in the past that they create tension and animosity, I know when one of these is clanking around, I have to decide whether or not I'm in a frame of mind to read and respond.

We've lost good forum members to these debates-turned-arguments (one of note for me is BigWill... I liked the guy, we were just diametrically opposed on our views and values).

Bren R.

Why not make Mexico a State - solves the problem.

Keep rotating upwards, Mexico becomes the 51st state, then the US becomes the 4th Canadian territory.

Bren R.

Not really fair for Canadians to comment on this problem, as we do not have it to the same extent. I favor immigration, but for those who apply to come and have something to contribute. We all come from immigrant stock. I think when your social system is exhaused by illegals, your justice system overrun, then something has to be done. There is no easy answer, likely the elimination of poverty in Mexico would be a start. Final comment - Go Oilers Go

Bren,
I like you, your're a hoot.

First,it seems you didn't bother reading the posts. Then, you do a "drive by".........throwing abstract, negative references, against the wall, to see if anything sticks.
And, when that fails to ruin the thread, you blame the author.

The old "flame, and blame".......hmmmmm, where have I seen that tactic before?

Oh yes, and thank you for adding the "redneck" stuff.....your rants are now complete!

your friend,

Larry

We are all in agreement something needs to be done. I would love to see a Madmax/Road warrior type tribe with armoured vehicles patrol the border. The government wouldn't even need to be involved. Just a bunch of good 'ol boys in their toys. Sign me up!!!!

I just love these political threads………..not. I just new I shouldn’t have opened it.

I’ll keep it short.

I agree with Teddy. I reckon I’m just an archaic redneck. Where’d I put that duct tape anyway?? Or better yet, maybe we should speak several different languages, fly numerous flags, and while were at it, lets just re-write the F-ing constitution. Why not? Who in the hell follows it anymore anyways.

Whoever tried to lump Teddy in with racist pigs is a tool.

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Just make a stand on something, right or wrong

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In the words of the immortal Steven Colbert,

"The greatest thing about [President Bush] is he's steady. You know where he stands. He believes the same thing Wednesday that he believed on Monday, no matter what happened Tuesday. Events can change; this man's beliefs never will."

Hey, man. Alaska's barely even a state. It's closer to being a Russian or Canadian territory than anything else...




You know I'm kidding, right?

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This is because of the huge, aging baby boomers withdrawing their spending power from the economic marketplace.

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Don’t you think globalization would compensate for a shrinking US economic base?

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we'll need all the (legal) immigrants we can get to expand the economic base. It’s unlikely the population will expand sufficiently to prevent the depression, though.

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I wouldn’t be so sure; Central Americans do know how to multiply quickly...

The replies to my last post have gone way far beyond my wildest imagination! I haven't had so much fun stirring up a bee's nest in a long time...

I doesn't look like many of the respondants took much time to inform themselves about what Mr Dent has to say, or what he uses to base his economic forecasts. He's done a LOT of research, and I am personally aquainted with several millionares who have made several of their millions using his economic model. He can't be too far off with that kind of loyalty and performance.

In a nutshell, he has gone back several thousands of years in history, and can show where predictable economic highs and lows will arrive, and why. Spend a few hours reading up on his Key Concepts area and you will find it worth the time, if only for a better understanding of our economic world.

Some may have confused my comments on immigrants with agreeing to a free and open border; nothing could be further from my personal views. I had a strong european influence in my upbringing, and have lived there for several years. They had in the past very tight borders that you simply didn't cross without very serious consequences. There are longer borders there where you died trying to cross illegally. It can be done. I'm not sure we are willing to pay the cost for such vigil, nor do I think that we should go to that extreme. I like very much the quote from Theodore Roosevelt on immigration. I don't have a quick answer to the border problem, but I think we need to take it a lot more seriously than the media suggest we are doing.

One final dig: regardless of the immigrant question, we are going to need a lot more people spending and working to avoid / lessen the coming depression. Read up on the Key Concepts at the Harry Dent web site.

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First,it seems you didn't bother reading the posts. Then, you do a "drive by".........throwing abstract, negative references, against the wall, to see if anything sticks.

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Alright then, won't let a sleeping dog lie - then once more into the breach... I did read the posts. If I have mischaracterized anyone's post, perhaps it's the fault of the poster for being vague on their opinion and reason for posting. As for a drive-by, I'll just remind you you brought the subject up originally, then drew first blood with your characterization of me as "over the top", all I did was pointed out that others with a different take on the subject had done the same, but left things ohh, just open enough to interpretation as to leave some doubt about what they were saying so as not to be called on it. Pardon me for being clear.

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And, when that fails to ruin the thread, you blame the author.

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Tell me, Larry... who tried to shut down debate on this? The thread didn't go in the direction you hoped - a mass of bobbleheads nodding in approval.

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The old "flame, and blame".......hmmmmm, where have I seen that tactic before?

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Ah, yes, the ol' "I couldn't stand the heat, I got out of the kitchen and now I'm pointing to anyone else I can as the arsonist"... try this sometime - stand up tall, take an arrow yourself... shifting blame to me is easy, I'm a bit of a conduit for it.

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Oh yes, and thank you for adding the "redneck" stuff.....your rants are now complete!

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I just give the audience what it wants. You asked, you got it. As for ranting, I think all that followed my post falls more into that category. It suddenly got 90% more "yeehaw!" in here.

Bren R.

Ya, I figured you were kidding. Funny thing about being an Alaskan, whenever I travel abroad, folks think I’m either Canadian or an “Alaskan” as if we were our own country. They know I’m a “yank” right off the bat, and usually hate me for it……then they find out I’m from Alaska and want to buy me a beer and talk about Eskimos, polar bears and 24 hour days.

That aside, I was born in Arizona. My mom’s mom was a Cherokee girl born and raised on a reservation. Died young then my grandfather (who came over to the states from Cork County, Ireland) married a Mexican woman They had a few more kids after my mom and a couple others (my cousins are and I together are quite a sight). Half my family is Catholic, the other is Mormon, and two of my five sisters are atheist lesbians. I’m currently non-denomination and detest religion in general, but am studying Zen. I have no allegiance to any political party, none….zip. Did I miss anything?

No wonder I’m so F-ed up.

That's quite a family you have there. Mine feels so... white bread in comparison. Thanks for sharing.

I imagine 24-hour days would be a lot of fun. 24-hour nights, on the other hand ... [shudder]

Let's just say that I see plenty of people in Virginia with Seasonal Affective Disorder. Can't imagine what that'd be like in AK. Therapy lights for everybody! 10,000 lux, stat!
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Bren,

I said: "over the top he goes" NOT over the top he is.

As for the rest, you know the old saying: if the flame thrower fits..................

Larry

Nick,

I would never slam you. I didn't mean my piece of dribble to be political. I just thought I would throw some ideas out there. I'll exit now, as you wish. Peace, bro.

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I think the extremists in our country (USA) get far too much face time when the reality is most folks are really quite moderate.

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Been to Texas lately?

Yea I live there, what is your point?

steers and queers...

thats not what your mama said...

My mama died 1 year before I was born, you insensitive jerk!

http://www.reason.org/commentaries/dalmia_20060501.shtml

Fixed Link

Peter ROX!