 Thinking of an upgrade... Need a little help
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I bought an Epic Grand Master 350 earlier this year. Back in April/June. I'm just not satisfied with the output of the 350. I love bass in the loud movie scenes. The problem i've been experiencing with the 350 is rattling(bottoming out?) on the deep long bass scenes. I will back it down to take out the rattling but then it's not enough bass. Trust me I'm VERY pleased with it. It's great for everything. I just think I like to shake my house a little to much, :-).
So I'm thinking of possibly purchasing the EP500. Unforunately I'm not sure what to do with the EP350 then. Does Axiom do any sort of exchange with an upgrade? If not how would I sell this puppy?
Or would it be wiser for me to purchase a second EP350?
If an upgrade to a bigger sub works well I'll pry look at moving up to the M60's or M80's.
Thanks for any help.
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Re: Thinking of an upgrade... Need a little help
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Hey Josh, now you come out of hiding...  I sent you many follow up emails on AVS and Gmail to see how your new Axioms were doing, but you never replied, so I assumed you either sold them or didn't like my suggestions. Seems like there is still a chance.  Anyway, I can't remember what your roomsize is but there are lots of things to get a sub dialed in just right. Position, roomsize, room treatments, calibration...., etc... Many people run their subs to hot, not sure what your issue is on this one. Anyway, when I upgraded from the 350 to the 500 there was a pretty big difference, just look at the specs and reviews and you can guess why. Now granted my room is huge 30ft x 31ft, can't recal your room size. Positioning and proper calibration is very important. If your sub is in the wrong placement, you can have room nulls in certain spots of the room, and others the bass seems to much. Axiom, normally lets you trade up, but within a certain period of time. You could call them and see what they say. Two 350s would be another option positioned strategically, it might give you a better/flatter response in the room. But the 500's is an animal. Anyway, good to hear your still alive and I didn't piss you off for refering you to Axiom. later
M80s VP180 4xM22ow 4xM3ic EP600 2xEP350
AnthemAVM60 Outlaw7700 EmoA500 Epson5040UB FluanceRT85
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 Re: Thinking of an upgrade... Need a little help
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Hey! No way would I ever get rid of them. I love them in every way. They are awesome. I get the wow effect every time someone visits. Thanks again for referring me to Axiom. Like I said I think I'm just a bit of a bass nut or something. Plus it doesn't help that I'm not an expert at tuning, calibrating, and placement. I really like everything I'm reading about the 500 and I'm itching to upgrade. But I would like to get some input beforehand because like you said it could be just mistuned or something.
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Re: Thinking of an upgrade... Need a little help
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axiomite
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First thing to check is to walk around the room during one of those long bass scenes and see if there is more bass somewhere else in the room. If so, that is your cue to do some more experimentation with sub placement to get more bass in your listening position, which in turn would let you reduce the sub level without losing bass. Even better, set your player to loop when everyone else is out of the house.
Having said that, the 500 does seem to be a really significant step up from the 350. It wouldn't hurt to call Axiom -- just don't be too upset if they say too much time has passed.
M60ti, VP180, QS8, M2ti, EP500, PC-Plus 20-39
M5HP, M40ti, Sierra-1
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Re: Thinking of an upgrade... Need a little help
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"Everyone else is out of the house" your not kidding. My wife isn't very happy after I was done playing around tonight. :-). I wouldn't be upset with Axiom of course. I mean it's been many months over the 30 day trial. Always worth a try.
I will try your suggestions. Should I be worried about any damage to the sub during these high bass scenes? I mean there is sometimes that rattling.
Josh
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Re: Thinking of an upgrade... Need a little help
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axiomite
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The room response shouldn't be affected by how loud you are playing, so I would take the volume down a bit to the point where there the sub stops rattling.
Is it a hard, edgy rattle (like something loose) or is it that dull, muted sound you get when the woofer starts to hit its limits ?
M60ti, VP180, QS8, M2ti, EP500, PC-Plus 20-39
M5HP, M40ti, Sierra-1
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Re: Thinking of an upgrade... Need a little help
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The real question is whether it's something in the room rattling, or something in the sub. If it's something in the sub, methinks there may be something wrong, so a call to Axiom is in order in any case. Good luck!
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!
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Re: Thinking of an upgrade... Need a little help
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The only way I could explain it is like a empty coffee rattling on the top of the sub box. I'm not sure what the dull muted sound sounds like. Sorry.
My reciever, a H/K 635 automatically equalizes the sub at -8db with the Volume knob around 10-11 oclock. I have the sub set to 80hz, is this correct?
Is it better to up the output from the 635 and back down on the volume knob on the sub? Or the other way around?
Josh
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Re: Thinking of an upgrade... Need a little help
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Quote:
The real question is whether it's something in the room rattling, or something in the sub. If it's something in the sub, methinks there may be something wrong, so a call to Axiom is in order in any case. Good luck!
It's definetly not the room. If you stand right near it you can definetly hear it coming directly from the sub.
I originally spoke with Axiom the first month I recieved it. They seemed to think it was the sub topping out. I think anyway, that was awhile ago. They said something specifically but I can't remember. However I do remember them tellingme to back down on the volumes knob. Which I did, but when I lower it alot I have that need for more bass!
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Re: Thinking of an upgrade... Need a little help
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Josh, welcome. When you say that you have the sub set to 80Hz, do you mean that's the crossover you set in the receiver(good)or that you have the crossover control on the sub itself at the 80Hz mark(not so good)? If the receiver is handling bass management the sub's own control isn't necessary and just gets in the way. It should be bypassed or turned all the way up to get it out of the crossover region.
Your 11 o'clock and -8dB settings aren't bad and change isn't essential, but you could lower that 11 o'clock a bit so that the auto-calibration raises the -8 a little to compensate.
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Re: Thinking of an upgrade... Need a little help
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Josh, have you checked the screws holding the driver in place behind the grill cover to make sure they are not loose?
M80s VP180 4xM22ow 4xM3ic EP600 2xEP350
AnthemAVM60 Outlaw7700 EmoA500 Epson5040UB FluanceRT85
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Re: Thinking of an upgrade... Need a little help
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axiomite
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Can you turn off the auto-EQ and run it for a while ? I'm a bit fuzzy on exactly what the 635 will do (I have a 630) but I think it does room EQ as well as level setting. If so, sometimes the EQ pumps up certain bass frequencies to give you a flatter response but makes your sub work much harder (ie hit its limits sooner) as a result.
I should probably interject here -- I have a big-ass SVS sub, purchased before the 500/600 came out, and can easily make it rattle and groan if I'm not very careful with the volume control, so if you have a large room and are playing at any kind of high SPL you probably are just overdriving the sub. Everything we're suggesting is just to make sure that you are getting all the enjoyment out of the sub that you can.
Going with a bigger sub brings lots of enjoyment as well, and the difference between 350 and 500 is pretty significant. One of the nice differences about the 500 is that the DSP acts as a very smart limiter, so even if you overdrive it a bit the DSP will gracefully back down the volume for a moment rather than overdrive the woofer.
Last edited by bridgman; 11/01/06 05:44 AM.
M60ti, VP180, QS8, M2ti, EP500, PC-Plus 20-39
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Re: Thinking of an upgrade... Need a little help
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I like my idea best. Upgrade to the EP500 and spend your time getting that to work as well as you can.
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Re: Thinking of an upgrade... Need a little help
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Quote:
Josh, welcome. When you say that you have the sub set to 80Hz, do you mean that's the crossover you set in the receiver(good)or that you have the crossover control on the sub itself at the 80Hz mark(not so good)? If the receiver is handling bass management the sub's own control isn't necessary and just gets in the way. It should be bypassed or turned all the way up to get it out of the crossover region.
Your 11 o'clock and -8dB settings aren't bad and change isn't essential, but you could lower that 11 o'clock a bit so that the auto-calibration raises the -8 a little to compensate.
Ok I'll try that. The reciever is controlling the crossover as I have the sub's knob turned all the way clockwise. What should the reciever crossover setting be for the sub?
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Re: Thinking of an upgrade... Need a little help
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Quote:
Josh, have you checked the screws holding the driver in place behind the grill cover to make sure they are not loose?
Hm... I'll check that tonight.
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 Re: Thinking of an upgrade... Need a little help
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Josh:
Here's something else to try out. On your HK receiver, set the sub output to +12db and the sub volume at the 9 o'clock setting. See if that takes care of the rattle. You might get too much bass, but since you like low frequency sounds, that shouldn't be a problem!
4 M80s/VP150/EP600/Denon AVR-5308 & DVD-2910/
2 QSC SRA3622(1100wattsX2)/Carvin 1800HD(600wattsX2)
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Re: Thinking of an upgrade... Need a little help
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Quote:
Josh:
Here's something else to try out. On your HK receiver, set the sub output to +12db and the sub volume at the 9 o'clock setting. See if that takes care of the rattle. You might get too much bass, but since you like low frequency sounds, that shouldn't be a problem!
Hm... worth a shot. What is your theory here?
Josh
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Re: Thinking of an upgrade... Need a little help
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[quote
The reciever is controlling the crossover as I have the sub's knob turned all the way clockwise. What should the reciever crossover setting be for the sub?
I'm curious about this also, as the question has come up often. HK owners why would there be a crossover level setting on the receiver for the sub? Isn't the point to set a crossover for the various speakers to direct lfe to the sub, why would you have a setting for the sub to send lfe to itself?
M80s VP180 4xM22ow 4xM3ic EP600 2xEP350
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Re: Thinking of an upgrade... Need a little help
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Hey Randy,
Not sure about the HK config availability, but on my Anthem AVM20 I have a multitude of frequency setting I can use for my sub (s). Anywhere from 45hz to 120hz in 10hz increments (or something really close to that:-). I have it set at 80hz for HT and sometimes I bring it down to 65hz for music. I can have 2 seperate and distinct settings for all speaker crossovers, one for cinema and one for music.
I am also a bass nut but my room size is not as large as some and I rarely overdrive my sub to the point of rattling. I would hazzard a guess, like it was sugested, that perhaps the sub is in a bass null and positioning should be explored for sure.
Steph
Acoustic Zen Adagio, Veritas center, Axiom EP500, QS8s, Anthem AVM20, MC20,Adcom GFA7400
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Re: Thinking of an upgrade... Need a little help
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axiomite
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>>I'm curious about this also, as the question has come up often. HK owners why would there be a crossover level setting on the receiver for the sub? Isn't the point to set a crossover for the various speakers to direct lfe to the sub, why would you have a setting for the sub to send lfe to itself?
This is one of the few confusing things in the HK "manual of arms". As you suggest, the crossover frequency settings are for the mains, center, surrounds and rear surrounds so you can say "above this go to speaker, below this go to sub".
In addition, however, you can set a low-pass filter on the .1 LFE channel, so that anything above this freq is discarded while anything below this freq goes to the sub. I don't fully understand the rationale for having this filter but it is there. Even more confusing, the LFE cutoff is not set in hz but by picking one of the other speaker sets then the LFE cutoff is set to be the same frequency as the one picked for that speaker.
Just a guess, but I think this is what people are talking about.
M60ti, VP180, QS8, M2ti, EP500, PC-Plus 20-39
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Re: Thinking of an upgrade... Need a little help
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I have the HK AVR 630. There is no crossover setting for the sub. There are four independent crossover groups just as you would expect: fronts, center, surrounds and surround back.
In response to this thread, as well as stated numerous times, just crank the crossover knob directly on your sub all the way up. Then let your receiver control the crossover settings and what sounds are sent to your sub.
Shag
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Re: Thinking of an upgrade... Need a little help
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axiomite
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Agreed (I also have a 630), but there are some settings which a reasonable person might *think* adjust the "crossover for the sub".
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Re: Thinking of an upgrade... Need a little help
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Randy, this might not be what Josh is referring to, but what's come up in some previous threads is what John B. described: the HKs have a separate provision for rolling off only the LFE channel to the sub(this doesn't affect the regular crossover setting or settings that establish crossovers between the speakers and sub). The LFE channel which occasionally has special low frequency effects during movies theoretically extends to 120Hz, but in practice there's almost no content above about 80Hz. It's been said that allowing the sub to receive the full 120Hz LFE range might let in some noise above 80Hz where there's no useful content. So HK(instead of simply setting a 80Hz LFE lowpass)gives the user an option as to where the LFE channel to the sub will be filtered.
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Re: Thinking of an upgrade... Need a little help
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Quote:
Quote:
Josh:
Here's something else to try out. On your HK receiver, set the sub output to +12db and the sub volume at the 9 o'clock setting. See if that takes care of the rattle. You might get too much bass, but since you like low frequency sounds, that shouldn't be a problem!
Hm... worth a shot. What is your theory here?
Josh
Well...the theory (ahem!) is that the sub gets a stronger input signal and does not have to work as hard to amplify the low frequency sounds...
4 M80s/VP150/EP600/Denon AVR-5308 & DVD-2910/
2 QSC SRA3622(1100wattsX2)/Carvin 1800HD(600wattsX2)
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Re: Thinking of an upgrade... Need a little help
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Richie, your suggestion(raising the voltage output to the sub amp from the receiver and lowering the level control on the sub itself to compensate)is a good one to put more voltage into the sub amp to keep it "awake". So far as the actual driver in the sub rattling, etc. on very high levels, that wouldn't appear to be affected since it's a mechanical, rather than electronic, problem.
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Re: Thinking of an upgrade... Need a little help
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I recieved this in my post about two better than one sub
John (not sure of his last name) on this board has done numerous experiments with Axiom subs.
2 EP500s are better than 1 EP600 for better distribution of LFE in the room.
EDIT:
Found the post from Jakeman:
1. 4 ep600s
2. 3 ep600s and 1 ep500
3. 2 ep600s and 2 ep500s
4. 1 ep600 and 3 ep500s
5. 4 ep500s
6. 3 ep 600s
7. 2 ep 600s and 1 ep 500
8. 1 ep600 and 2 ep500s
9. 3 ep500s
10. 2 ep600s
11. 1 ep600 and 1 ep500
12. 2 ep500s
13. 1 ep600
14. 1 ep 500
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Re: Thinking of an upgrade... Need a little help
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I've decided to take the advice, stop tweaking the 350 and order a 500. Now i'm waiting, :-)!
On a side note. All this staring at the Axiomaudio.com site has sparked my interest in ordering a set of M80's as well. I'm crazy. I looked at the connection photo on the details page. There seems to be 2 sets of input? How come this is so? And how would you take advantage of them?
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2 sets up plugs are for bi-wiring and bi-amping as illustrated below: 
Last edited by Hutzal; 11/02/06 09:30 PM.
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Re: Thinking of an upgrade... Need a little help
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Josh, don't rule out the m50 or m60's either. I have the m60's and your aware they are in a huge room, and they have no problems, the bass is killer. They also have the extra terminal, but just leave the gold clip in place which keeps them as one and just use 12 or 14 gauge wire. In my opinion, bi wiring is over rated. Bi amping is a different animal, and has it uses. I don't think you listen to music at insane volumes anyway.
M80s VP180 4xM22ow 4xM3ic EP600 2xEP350
AnthemAVM60 Outlaw7700 EmoA500 Epson5040UB FluanceRT85
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Quote:
Josh, don't rule out the m50 or m60's either. I have the m60's and your aware they are in a huge room, and they have no problems, the bass is killer. They also have the extra terminal, but just leave the gold clip in place which keeps them as one and just use 12 or 14 gauge wire. In my opinion, bi wiring is over rated. Bi amping is a different animal, and has it uses. I don't think you listen to music at insane volumes anyway.
The only reason I'm ruling them out is because of the future upgraditis I may encounter. If I can convince the wife this weekend during a candlelit dinner I think I will be placing an order Monday to compliment my new EP500,
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Is that the secret? Maybe I've been married to long and that puppy love stage is a distant memory. ha ha I suppose if I would have not purchased my entire setup at once, I would have gone with the m80's as they are not that much more expensive. Some of those custom finishes are awesome. Gloss Piano Black would be way to cool. Truely, I am very very happy with my m60's, they go louder than I need them to and they are very similar to the m80's in most respects of sound, the 80's just play to more insane volumes I've heard.
M80s VP180 4xM22ow 4xM3ic EP600 2xEP350
AnthemAVM60 Outlaw7700 EmoA500 Epson5040UB FluanceRT85
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yup yup. i'm young. just turned 24. so a little dinner and sweet talking should be the ticket,
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I agree with you, if you can get the m80's, providing the wife and budget allow it go for it. Randy is correct in saying that the M60's are great speakers, but Imo if you can afford it, get the best Axiom has to offer and avoid upgraitis.
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.
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Will my H/K 635 have problems driving M80s? Would I have to get a bigger reciever? Currently I'm driving a pair of M22's.
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Most HK's have no problems with the 80's. 24, ahh to be young again. I recently hit 14yrs of marriage and have two young boys, so the toys aren't as common as when I tied the knot. Man I miss all my sports cars.....
M80s VP180 4xM22ow 4xM3ic EP600 2xEP350
AnthemAVM60 Outlaw7700 EmoA500 Epson5040UB FluanceRT85
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HKs seem to have no problems driving M80s. The 80s should play a bit more loudly than the M22s at the same volume control setting.
M60ti, VP180, QS8, M2ti, EP500, PC-Plus 20-39
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