Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Axiom bashing

I have been doing alot of research around the internet and have come across several instances on the audio forums and the polk forums where people say that the Axioms are too lightweight. Is there anything to this that Axiom perhaps is too skimpy on its materials. I'm also hearing stories of peeling vinyl. Say it ain't so. I have had my eye on the m80's for a while and really hope this is not true. Here are a few quotes from the Polk forums.
"The Polk will rule the Axiom, just by specs it looks like it will. I would take a 20 pounds speaker over an 8 pounder anyday. Just seems better quality materials and parts were used in the Polk which would mean better quality sound". (regarding the center channel)

"I always liked the fact they have a bookshelf that weighs like 19 pounds. Yet it has 2 midbasses, a tweeter and a crossover...

Most midbasses alone weigh atleast 4-5 pounds. So thats on average 9 pounds... tweeters weigh atleast a pound, so thats 10 pounds - then you have the port and crossover which together probally weigh a pound... so thats 11...

So that leaves what, 8 pounds for a cabinet? Say WHAT?"

Also whats up with this discussion on audio holics? The guy actually gets banned from the forum for slandering axiom. I have been considering the Polk Rti12's and this article really made me think twice about axiom(even though the guy obviously has issues and therefore don't know how much should be listened to). But is there anything to this?
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30616&page=4

There's nothing to it. If you look at the comments from the Polk fora, you can see that they haven't listened to the speaker. The build quality on my M50s seems to have held up just fine, and Axiom's warranty is excellent, as is their customer service. (yes, the advice you get from different people seems to vary a lot if you call them...) Nevertheless, we wouldn't all be here if Axiom didn't make a quality product.

The reason many speaker manufacturers have thick/heavy cabinet materials and/or lots of internal bracing is because that's the most common way to minimize cabinet resonances. Axiom accomplishes this with the Anti-Standing-Wave cabinet design. The non-parallel sides prevent sound waves from bouncing back and forth between the side walls.


Also, Audioholics is an independent entity. You shouldn't base your decision to buy or not to buy on the actions of that site.

Audioholics decision to ban an Axiom basher should not influence the poster's decision to purchase Axiom speakers. Do you think otherwise?

I don't see why we need to defend the speakers we love. If you are so worried about it, don't get Axiom.

Yes thats right, you heard me right. Instead, go buy your polk speakers and get the same quality for alot more than the Axiom equal. Alternativly, go audition someone's setup in the "hearing things" forum and hear for yourself the Axiom sound that we all came to know and love.

The banning as I understand it was not for bashing Axiom, but for bashing the moderators/reviewers as being biased, etc., and in part because of emails he sent the mods. Oh, and the guy is a real d***.

If I may insert a question I asked in that thread but got no reply to...where does the widespread belief that Axioms are "bright" come from? I haven't heard Axioms yet, but as I understand "bright" it should come from an emphasis in treble frequencies...but frequency response for any Axiom model shows no such thing.

So...what do people mean?

Stymie, you have the exact setup I'm thinking about getting with the HK and monoblocks and speakers. How have you liked that setup? Have there been any drawbacks.
And yes I do realize we should only take such comments/opinions with a grain of salt. Especially from the deranged.

The brightness comes from the fact that they are so flat in the frequency response--there's no forgiveness for bad recordings, especially in the M2/22/60/80 line. The 3/50 line is a tad more forgiving. A tad. A lot of other speakers are somewhat rolled off in the treble. Certainly, many tube amps produce that effect. Some people like it.

Scuff, with regard to the vinyl peel.... I beleive the very first run of ASW cabinets had problems with the vinyl splitting along the front edges. This was pre-2001, so it's long been rectified. But the nay-sayers will drag it out for another decade for sure.

>>If I may insert a question I asked in that thread but got no reply to...where does the widespread belief that Axioms are "bright" come from? I haven't heard Axioms yet, but as I understand "bright" it should come from an emphasis in treble frequencies...but frequency response for any Axiom model shows no such thing.

"Brightness" seems to relate to response in the 2-5 KHz range. A lot of speakers have a response dip in this range because (IIRC) BBC psychoacoustic testing indicated that a response dip in this range was perceived as sounding "smoother".

Axioms are dead-flat in this range, although the M3/M40/M50 dip a bit in the off-axis response -- apparently a function of the larger cone in the 6.5" woofer-midrange. You hear the downside of the flat response in a couple of ways -- if a recording has pronounced sibilance you will hear relatively more of it on Axioms, and I have found some recordings which seem to be optimized for car stereos and sound "harsh" on my Axioms.

It's actually pretty easy to find recordings which make Axioms sound crappy -- it's just that for the kind of recordings most of us actually *listen* to (the good ones ) the flat midrange response gives Axioms an exceptional level of clarity and transparency.

As a couple of others have posted, the 6.5"-based models "split the difference" -- they sound a tiny bit less transparent on the best material but are more tolerant of crappy recordings.

FYI, Ian feels strongly that thick, heavy cabinet walls and lots of bracing are *not* the way to design the best sounding speakers.

I have had a tough time narrowing it down to a decade or a genre. The very worst recordings seem to be from the 70s and 80s -- as do the very best recordings. It's the midrange level that matters more than the high treble.

Here's a good example -- B.B. Gabor's anthology just came out on CD recently (Gabor was very popular around Toronto). The CD sounds great on my car system (the entry level system in a Dodge Magnum) but sounds harsh on my M60s.

EDIT -- I guess I could have picked an album that somebody not from Toronto might have heard of... but it *is* a good album anyways

I have very few recordings that sound bad on the Axioms, probably because I have generally owned pretty flat speakers (Rogers LS3/5A's being the exception, I guess, with their famous BBC dip ) so the albums probably would have been tossed or given away long before I bought the Axioms.

Like others have said, the M3 is a good model for that type of music. As well as the M50 and the M60 (the M60 not as much as the others, but the M60 DOES in fact "pat" you on the back instead of slapping you across the face like the M22s, based on a review at audioholcs on the M60 tower).

-Hutz

Axioms do a great job at reproducing Beatles music. I am not a huge Beatles fan but I have a few of their recordings and they sound great on the M80s. I hear a lot of folks complain about bad recordings and Axioms but out of 400 discs or so I have maybe two of them does not sound absolutely brilliant on the Axioms.

If I were to believe everything that is said on the forums I would have never tried Axioms. Thank goodness I am not that gullible. Only you can tell if the Axiom sound is for you, give them a try.

Scuffernoose, speaker preference is completely subjective. Unfortunately, those who are insecure about their preference find in necessary to "run down," trash," criticize" other brands in order to validate their purchase of the brand they prefer. It's the old "I can't be right unless you are wrong." trap. The problem is, there is no "right" or "wrong" when it comes to subjective opinion.

There are many people who don't care for Axioms. There are many people who don't care for Polks. Neither fact means that either speaker is "bad." Both are manufactured by reputable companies, and have many satisfied owners. It all comes down to what you prefer.

As far as the "bright" label is concerned, keep in mind that, in my opinion, Axioms are unflinchingly accurate speakers. If a given CD is poorly mixed and/or mastered, or simply mixed and mastered to sound good on the average boom box or older car system, there is a possibility that it will not sound very good on Axioms. Garbage in; garbage out. However, with a well recorded, mixed, and mastered CD, Axioms have a "WOW" factor that is through the roof.

Also, having a "live" room can make things seem "bright." Hardwood or tile floors, uncovered walls with pictures or posters under glass, wood or chrome furniture with little cushioning, etc., can accentuate high frequencies. IMHO, next to the speakers themselves, the size, shape, and surfaces of a room, along with it's furnishings, have the greatest influence on how your system sounds.

Rest assured that Axiom speakers are excellent speakers. Whether or not you would like them is the question.

I could repeat what everyone else has said, but here are a couple of my thoughts....

[start ramble]

1) I used to be an avid reader/contributer at the AVScience forums. There is SO much useful information over there in so many different areas, but as soon as you step into a forum category where there is "discussion" of one brand vs. another, you will get ripped to shreds if you don't "vote" for the more commonly known AKA "mainstream" product, or even the one that sells the most. I mean, come on... Just because BOSE is expensive doesn't make it good (we all know that they aren't good, so let's leave that one for the search feature). But you will have people tearing into you if you say that their expensive gear isn't light years better than your reasonably priced stuff.

Look at it this way. Let's say that you are looking to buy a sports car. Money is no object for the purchase price. You look at a new Lamborghini LP640. Power, performance, a symbol of your worldy status (whatever). Next up is, well, let's say a Saturn Sky. Cool, yep, fun to drive, sure... Both are "sports cars" yet very different. buy the Sky and people will say, "Hey, cool car." By the Lambo, and youwon't be able to beat people off with a stick! So is the Lamborghini "better?" Maybe. Again, money was no object to buy it, but what about maintenance, upkeep, gas guzzler taxes, etc. Heck, even comfort. While the LP640 isn't bad for a supercar, the Sky is actually more comfortable. The LP640 can eat asphalt so fast, yet the Sky is just plain fun to drive. So what. Someone buys the Lamborghini. Maybe I'll buy the Sky. I'll take mine out in the rain. I'll drive mine around town without feeling like I'm fighting to keep the car from smashing into the car in front of me because it doesn't want to behave. I will get more use, and more functionality out of that little Sky than your Lamborghini. That means more fun for me!

So now that I've rambled on, what does that have to do with anything? Well, I am not saying that Axioms or Polk are the Lamborghini, or even the Sky in that deranged analogy. I would say that maybe the other speakers are a tricked out Corvette. Pampered, and babied. Used to show off to friends and neighbors, etc, etc... The Axioms, in my book, are like the Ariel Atom (love that car). Designed and built for one purpose and one purpose only. To perform as the best possible race style sports car ever. To top it off, the Atom is (unless TOTALLY tricked out, which is only recommended for people with professional race car driving training) less expensive. It weighs less, performs better in many areas that the Corvette can't even touch, etc. So cost and size and weight don't make a Corvette a better car than the Atom. But if you put the two side by side. Most people would pick the Corvette because that is all that they know/recognize. Not because they know squat about either of them.

2) Oh, that was all #1, wasn't it. I will repeat one thing said by a few others, but ALWAYS agreed upon by everyone here. Go listen to the speakers. I bought my Axiom's without even auditioning them. It was scary waiting for them to show up (factory outlet delay), but when they got here, I LOVED them. You may too. You may not. You may say "I want the Lamborghini" and get something outrageous for $10,000 a speaker or something. You may go with KLH speakers for $50 a pop (hehehe - I used to own them "back in the day" before I knew anything) which would be like buying a PowerWheel for your daily driver. Or maybe, just maybe, you will hear the Axioms. Appreciate them for really how good they are, and order a set for yourself.

I vote for the last one, but more because you will have to actually listen to something so that YOU make up YOUR mind, and not fall victim to the words of the mind-less masses elsewhere on the internet.

[/end ramble]

Bridgman, that was a great explanation of brightness. Thank you.

Scuffer, when I started my research for my speaker purchase last year, I decided to audition the Polk RTi12s, Klipsch RF-83 and the Swan Divas in my home. At that point, I had never heard of Axiom.

I had no problem finding RF-83s. As for the Polks and Divas, it was like these companies had a best kept secret and didn't want to share it with the world. I couldn't find a dealer that had the RTi12s so I decided to call Polk for help. I gave one of their customer service representatives all my contact info so that he could get back to me with a dealer name. A few days later, I still hadn't received the information so I decided to e-mail them. A few days after that, I gave up. I experienced pretty much a similar situation with the Divas.

Then one day while reading through the Polk boards, I ran into Axiom. As I started researching, I realized that there are actually people behind this company that may be able to help me . They not only made my buying experience simple and pleasant but they also bent over backwards and helped me out when I found a problem. To make a long story short, I auditioned Axiom and Klipsch in my home and the decision was actually very easy for me. I would have liked to compare the others as well but it appears that they simply didn't care for me, the potential customer.

I am very happy with my Axioms. They are not bright or forward as many describe but they are not dull or laid back either. Rather, they are very accurate and I like that. When I finally found the optimal set-up for my M80s, I couldn't believe what I was hearing. I (and others who have listened) initially mistook it for surround and had to confirm for myself that my VP150 and QS8s weren't on. I feel that I not only purchased a great product but also bought into a great company with tremendous human resources.

Whatever electro-acoustic transducer you decide on, I hope that it provides you the same sonic pleasure that I and my loved ones have found in the Axioms.

Thank you all for your advice. I really appreciate how helpful everybody here is. I am pretty sure I am going to end up buying the M80's instead of the Polk RTi12. A few reasons are because the m80s look nicer, are cheaper, and look to have better customer service. I think Axiom will be a good fit for me with their flat responses as I have grown accustomed to listening to nearfield studio monitors(Yamaha HS-80) with my computer recording setup. They are really flat speakers as well and like I suspect axiom is, are very revealing. For instance when listening to vinyl, you will every little pop/click/hiss on the record where as most speakers you can hardly notice. But when you put on a nice recording it really nice to hear everything so clear. Is this experience sound familiar to you axiom owners? Anyways, here is my "list" now:
Outlaw Audio Model 2200 Pair - $624
Axiom M80’s Pair - $1330.00
Harmon Kardon AVR-645 - $695.00 (I like HK, I wanted XM)
Total - $2649

Emotiva RPA-1 is a nice 2 channel

I like the dials. That's old school cool!

Do you mean power meters? The is no dials.

O nice, I like that. It looks nicer and a tad more powerful. Interesting, I'll have to consider that.

Oops--power meters, then.

>>For instance when listening to vinyl, you will every little pop/click/hiss on the record where as most speakers you can hardly notice. But when you put on a nice recording it really nice to hear everything so clear. Is this experience sound familiar to you axiom owners?

One of the common posts we see from new Axiom owners is along the lines of "I stayed up all night playing my old CDs, listening to details I had never heard before".

Quote:

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...I would take a 20 pounds speaker over an 8 pounder anyday. Just seems better quality materials and parts were used...

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I looked quickly but couldn't find what I was looking for. I remember coming across an article where someone took an amp/receiver apart and found a block of concrete in it. You always here heavier is better, not necessairly

I wasn't correcting his grammar but yes I see my grammar was not correct. There are no dials............is that better your majesty.

Sean didn't take any offense to it why would you?

Quote:

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When correcting someone, it always pays to double-check your own grammar. Make sure it makes cents.

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It looks like I'm not the only one.

Clearly you missed my smiley... Hence the intentional mistakes in my own post. Is joke. Is funny. You laugh?

I must have, sorry then.

I sat on that one, didn't I...

I don't know, sat, bent over, lying down, it's all good

I'd like to add to John's post with some blindtesting that was done at the NRC by Paul Barton of PSB on this "brightness" issue in 2005. Like Axiom, PSB adheres to NRC principles (as well as Paradigms and Energy among others) and I've noted that some people have referred to all of them as sounding bright over the years. Its really more an attribute which some listeners prescribe to speakers with flat FR. I don't find any of those speakers bright sounding but I understand the concern.

In testing the Stratus Gold, PSB concluded that a significant group of blind test participants found that speaker as sounding too bright compared to one that had less response in the 5khz range. As a result he redesigned the Stratus to have a dip in response around 5khz. Whether it was a sonic improvement or not I'm not sure, but sales of the Stratus have been very good for PSB.

Thank you for the info. That is a shame that they have been letting quality slip. I remember being very impressed with the quality several years ago when it was fairly new. If it is poor quality then I don't want it on my home theatre then. Thanks for saving me a few hundred bucks. Now I can spring for a cheaper Hk reciever.
Thats really a shame when companies lose sight of quality when trying to cater to the mass market. On a side note, what quality digital compression is best when listening on the axioms. Is 192 bitrate mp3 good enough?

That's a question that's becoming almost as radioactive as speaker cable... It depends on how picky you are. I usually have my stuff (AACs, mostly) at 160KBps-220KBps.

I listen to most of my digital music via the ipod. I only have a 20 gigger, and I want to fit as much of my collection on it as possible, so I go the tradeoff route and rip everything at 160kbps VBR. When I'm in the mood AND have the opportunity for a "sit down and soak it in" listening session, I've got plenty of discs I can throw in the player for uncompressed goodness.

I've got music on almost all the time at home and I don't often find myself paying attention to imaging and crystal clarity of cymbal hits while chasing kids around the house.

Trade not my Axiom's for anything, unless someone wants to trade me for his $12,000 B&W Nautilis or top-o-the-line M&K's

Also check out the HK I hear they are having problems.
I had HK once and had to send it in for repairs 6 times in one year. No sh*t It was giving me a hmmm I treid everything ground loop etc cheater plug I even brought in a huge UPS from work and ran it off that still had the hmm. I took it to my mom new house still hummed. It sounded like a wasps nest. Finally they HK repiar guy sent me a new HK humm was gone , but I sold it asap and bought my Denon.