 Small, inexpensive 2-channel amps?
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I've browsed some forums on other sites for feedback, but I thought I'd bring-it-home to the Axiom group to see what kind of advice I can stir up here. At my wife's request, I am trying to set up a 2.1 channel system in our master bedroom. The sources will be either XM Radio or iPod, and so I see no need for a dedicated AV receiver. My wife is incredibly accepting of home audio, but she wouldn't be too thrilled with an AV receivier sitting on a shelf in the bedrooom. From that, I think a small, discrete amp hooked up to an iPod dock sitting on the nightstand next to the bed will be best. The speakers for the moment will be a pair of Energy Take 5's and a Kenwood powered sub (which will handle the crossover duties). Remnants of our old main system. I would very likely soon replace the Take 5's with either a pair of M3's or maybe some Onix X-Series speakers. Not quite sure which... Anyway, I am being drawn towards the small, relatively inexpensive digital amps such as the original T-Amp at $40, the bigger T-Amp + at like $139, or the Trends Audio TA-10 at ~ $129. Based on my satisfaction of the Emotiva LPA-1, I'm also thinking about their small (non-digital) amp, the BPA-1 at like $190. I fully understand that the digital amps don't put out that much power. I don't need large amounts of power because this is going to be in the bedroom and used for background music while reading, lounging, etc. That said, I do still want it to sound good when needed, and that puts a bit more weight in favor of the BPA-1, with it's more serious wattage. I've read some pretty good reviews of the Trends amp, and so that seems to jump out. Anyone have any experience with these, or any other of the small, dedicated amps? Or is this a dumb idea and instead I should just get a refurb AV receiver from eCost for <$150?
Last edited by PeterChenoweth; 04/26/07 02:42 PM.
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Re: Small, inexpensive 2-channel amps?
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I will be watching this thread as well! Actually, to add to his questions about a small 2 channel setup, I have an 8 year old JVC mini stereo that came with two 6ohm bookshelf speakers. I am assuming that the internal amps in the mini system will be ample to drive 2 M3s right?
Last edited by Hutzal; 04/26/07 02:48 PM.
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Re: Small, inexpensive 2-channel amps?
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Peter, I think those are all excellent choices. The Emo has a MUCH larger footprint than the others. I sort of like vintage integrated amps (old Kenwood, Sansui, Yamaha, Pioneer), especially if they have VU meters. So, no integration with a TV in the bedroom? No intent for whole house audio? Hey, you didn't think I was going to "help" did you? 
bibere usque ad hilaritatem
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Re: Small, inexpensive 2-channel amps?
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Wonder how much yet unnamed Axiom powered computer sub/speakers would be?
Might be a good solution for you (no amp required).
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Re: Small, inexpensive 2-channel amps?
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Peter,
going on the previous posters response, you could always just use the subs amp, the EP400 would suit your needs perfectly.
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Re: Small, inexpensive 2-channel amps?
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I do realize that the Emotiva is about the size of a shoebox, and the Trends is little bigger than a deck of cards. Nope, no TV in the bedroom. As far as whole-house audio... well, yeah.  If/when we move/build a new home, a whole-house system will be something that we will consider. For right now, it's not an issue.
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Re: Small, inexpensive 2-channel amps?
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I just bought a used Marantz (no, not one of the silver faced ones) off of eBay for ~$80. Works just fine for second room audio.
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!
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Re: Small, inexpensive 2-channel amps?
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I have no need for such a killer sub in the bedroom. Besides, I'd still need an amp. The EP400 can't drive mains, just itself (right?). I might replace my crusty Kenwood with an HSU STF-1 sometime, but it's low on the priority list. My Kenwood is acceptable for this application. I'm also not about to spend $1,100 for a sub in a mini-system. Remember, I'm not talking about setting up a reference 2.1 room, just a mild-but-nice system for the bedroom.
Yes, I had thought about the upcomming Axiom office system. I suspect it would be perfect for my needs, though I'm not sure when it will be released.
Thanks for the idea about the Marantz. I've been browsing eBay for used-but-good equipment. The problem is that I don't know what exactly to look for when it comes to older/used Marantz, Rotel, Adcom, etc gear.
Last edited by PeterChenoweth; 04/26/07 04:25 PM.
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Re: Small, inexpensive 2-channel amps?
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for some reason I thought the EP400 - 600 could drive some bookshelf speakers...I have no idea why I thought that...Man that would be a sweet addition to the EP400 - 600 line. Negating the need for an amp, just a CD player with an RCA L/R out to the sub.
-Hutz
Last edited by Hutzal; 04/26/07 04:48 PM.
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Re: Small, inexpensive 2-channel amps?
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Take a look at a used Parasound Zamp. They are half width components which are actually built pretty well. I believe you can get one used off audiogon for about 150.
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Re: Small, inexpensive 2-channel amps?
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What I am planning on doing is getting a Sonos bundle, a Z80 that connects to my network and has access to all my music on my pc, and a Z100 which is a 2 channel 50W amp that powers a pair of speakers and has an output for a powered sub if you want to use one. The whole thing is controlled with a LCD remote. At $1,500 dollars it's not exactly cheap, but it gets me access to all my digital music (100GB worth of it) in any room I want, just add more Z100s to speakers.
Acoustic Zen Adagio, Veritas center, Axiom EP500, QS8s, Anthem AVM20, MC20,Adcom GFA7400
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Re: Small, inexpensive 2-channel amps?
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Just got my 2 x Trends TA 10.1 today. No time to set it up till the weekend and let you know in a week or so how it fares. Based on specs the speakers should be in the 90db or higher range if you want to fill a nice size room.
Its bigger than a deck of cards. More like a BIG stick of butter.
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Re: Small, inexpensive 2-channel amps?
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Quote:
Just got my 2 x Trends TA 10.1 today. No time to set it up till the weekend and let you know in a week or so how it fares. Based on specs the speakers should be in the 90db or higher range if you want to fill a nice size room.
Its bigger than a deck of cards. More like a BIG stick of butter.
You da man! Please let me know what you think about it. I'll be eagerly awaiting to hear your impressions!
Ok, maybe THREE decks of cards  .
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Re: Small, inexpensive 2-channel amps?
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Peter, unless having absolutely the smallest unit is totally essential, then yes, I'd suggest that you get an HT receiver, both for the present use and future possibilities. If you're going to use a sub it'd be highly desirable to have an HT receiver with bass management provisions(even for two-channel use)rather than a two-channel amp. An excellent candidate is the 504 refurb from Shop Onkyo , which is by no means huge and which is available for $149 with free shipping when you register for "Club Onkyo" and get a $10 credit.
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Re: Small, inexpensive 2-channel amps?
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Quote:
Peter, unless having absolutely the smallest unit is totally essential, then yes, I'd suggest that you get an HT receiver, both for the present use and future possibilities. If you're going to use a sub it'd be highly desirable to have an HT receiver with bass management provisions(even for two-channel use)rather than a two-channel amp. An excellent candidate is the 504 refurb from Shop Onkyo , which is by no means huge and which is available for $149 with free shipping when you register for "Club Onkyo" and get a $10 credit.
Thanks for the suggestion. That's a pretty good deal on a full-featured 7.1 AVR. Certainly a whole lot more functionality than just an amp. I didn't realize Onkyo had a direct retail side on the internet... Very curious indeed.
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Re: Small, inexpensive 2-channel amps?
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Hey Peter; Well this small little amps are really fantastic. The midrange and highs have soo much detail even bordering more detail than my Tube amps. Mind you my tube amp does roll off on the absolute top and bottom ranges. The midrange on this amp is truly wonderful. It is a little lacking in lower bass. The bass is there though and really tight. Mind you this could be my speakers as the drivers are big and since it is a 4 ohm speaker the bass driver might be wanting more power than 15w. This amp would be great with any speaker. It would definitely excel with a monitor in 2 channel that has smaller drivers that has at least efficiency of 90db in a small or medium room such as a M2 or M22. I also played it this weekend watching Night at the Museum wuth Ben Stiller. I had to run it max but it was definitely loud enough in my 25x23 room. I had a sub which helped in the bass department. My personal opinion I'd give it many stars for performance. Its definitely a keeper. I will do a more intensive A-B test in coming weeks with the Trends 10.1 vs my current Radii tube mono block block amps with the Zero Autoformer vs. my buddy's Bryston 4B SST vs. my dads HK reciever and see if there is any decernable difference. Quote:
Quote:
Just got my 2 x Trends TA 10.1 today. No time to set it up till the weekend and let you know in a week or so how it fares. Based on specs the speakers should be in the 90db or higher range if you want to fill a nice size room.
Its bigger than a deck of cards. More like a BIG stick of butter.
You da man! Please let me know what you think about it. I'll be eagerly awaiting to hear your impressions!
Ok, maybe THREE decks of cards .
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Re: Small, inexpensive 2-channel amps?
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If you are considering any HK receivers, I urge you to listen to them with your speakers (and in your room if possible) before you emotionally commit. Depending on your ears,gear and expectations, the distortion level may be unacceptable. I bought a nice powerful HK 2 channel about 8 months ago as an "interim cheapie." I'd been using an old yamaha 1020 for years. The HK has a .07% distortion at 8ohms. I was surprised how much difference I could hear between that and the .05% of the old Yamaha. What some describe as "warm," I experience as distorted. The bummer is the .2% distortion at 4ohms. I can live with the sound on the 8 ohm speakers, but with the 4 ohms it sounds like the speakers are wrapped in a down comforter.
Last edited by rhinemaiden1; 05/10/07 09:24 PM.
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Re: Small, inexpensive 2-channel amps?
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Peter,
Something that the soundguy at my church recommended to me as a cheap 2-channel amp, is to goto a pawn shop. Most of the time they don't even know how to price amps and receivers, and you can get a steal of the deal on something they don't even understand.
-Hutz
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Re: Small, inexpensive 2-channel amps?
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Take a look at this test. It would suprise me if indeed you can hear the difference between .07 and .05 thd. Even at .2 I have my doubts.
Rick
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud
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Re: Small, inexpensive 2-channel amps?
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Quote:
The HK has a .07% distortion at 8ohms. I was surprised how much difference I could hear between that and the .05% of the old Yamaha.
You may have heard a difference, but it certainly was not due to a 2/100ths difference in distortion. That's just crazy talk.
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Re: Small, inexpensive 2-channel amps?
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Rick
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud
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Re: Small, inexpensive 2-channel amps?
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Speaking of small, inexpensive amps...........Radio Shack is now stocking a couple of low end Sherwood AV/receivers and, I thought I saw a 2-channel as well.
Also, if the distortion (THD) specs.on an "amp" are even close to 1%..........you're gonna hear it.
Did someone say crazy talk?...............play nice, now.
LIFE: "Choices, balance, and timing"
(Larryism)
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Re: Small, inexpensive 2-channel amps?
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The crazy talk I was referring two was audibly detecting a difference between .05% and .07% THD.
Más ridículo.
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Re: Small, inexpensive 2-channel amps?
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Right; THD is a non-issue on any amplifying equipment which we would seriously consider. The blind listening tests on audibility of distortion vary with the type of music being employed, but a generally accurate statement would be that in real-world music listening it has to be over about 1.0% before it can be detected.
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Enjoy the music, not the equipment.
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Re: Small, inexpensive 2-channel amps?
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What would be a good THD+N number for 20Hz-20kHz?
Play it loud...
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Chris, as I indicated, in my view THD as a practical matter should be a non-issue for us. It appears that power delivered with less than about 1% THD is audibly clean in listening to music, so anything up to that number should be fine. It could also be noted that a unit with a relatively "high" rating of say 0.7%(possibly to make the "magic" 100 watt mark while still complying with mandatory FTC power rating regulations)would probably measure about 0.1% just a few watts lower. Measurements in thousandths of a percent, while a testament to engineering excellence, aren't of audible significance. Of some interest is the Yamaha discussion in the power rating section of their faqs. Although they follow the typical practice by rating their receivers at a power level where distortion is a little under 0.1%(e.g. 0.07%), they acknowledge the lack of significance of such a number.
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Enjoy the music, not the equipment.
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Re: Small, inexpensive 2-channel amps?
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The problem with any discussion regarding measurement and audibility of harmonic distortion is that our sensitivity to harmonics varies with what order distortion we are hearing. Even order or low order harmonic distortion can be difficult to distinguish at high volumes and may even sound pleasant. For example, many people would be surprised if they knew how much second order harmonic distortion they listen to unknowingly with their favourite subs. Tube amps in particular have high levels of low order HD which is why many people find them appealing.
The offensive stuff is the high order or odd order harmonics. Very small amounts of odd order distortion can be detected at low volumes. While the 1% THD stat is frequently cited as a threshold amount for amplifiers, especally with car applications, what that stat ignores is the composition of THD and the fact that each of us has different sensitivity to HD. I often hear my tube amp friends talk of the "harshness" of solid state amps which I interepret to mean their sensitivity to odd order harmonic distortion. Listening test studies have shown odd order harmonics in the 2khz to 8khz range can be detected as low as .01% by some individuals.
I would strongly recommend not buying any solid state amp which is spec'd at 1% THD without knowing how much of that number is odd order harmonics (though not many manufacturers would dare cite that that number). Also try to determine what the THD curve looks like when graphed against frequency response. THD will also vary with frequency and manufacturers will often cite the most favourable looking stat.
John
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Re: Small, inexpensive 2-channel amps?
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Instead of creating a new thread, I just thought I'd add on to this one. I've seen the Behringer A500 Reference Amplifier mentioned in a couple of places, and it seems like a bargain. I think I'll have to try it out at some point. Is anyone here using one (or more) of these?
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Re: Small, inexpensive 2-channel amps?
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Quote:
Take a look at this test. It would suprise me if indeed you can hear the difference between .07 and .05 thd. Even at .2 I have my doubts.
so I took the test, I can only hear the difference up to -12db, what does that mean in terms of % THD?
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Re: Small, inexpensive 2-channel amps?
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Quote:
Instead of creating a new thread, I just thought I'd add on to this one. I've seen the Behringer A500 Reference Amplifier mentioned in a couple of places, and it seems like a bargain. I think I'll have to try it out at some point. Is anyone here using one (or more) of these?
I have the A500, it's just great. I use it because I need an amp that handles different ohms so that when I A/B speakers, the power does not come into question. (unlike when using receivers)
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Re: Small, inexpensive 2-channel amps?
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Hey, thanks for responding. I may have to try it out sometime.
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