Re: What should I upgrade?
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 28
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OP
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Joined: May 2006
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Thanks for all the great comments/suggestions. I have considered the room treatment path. There are some fairly cheap room accoustic panels I found while browsing on the audioholics website. The company's name is not coming to me at the moment....I agree that every room is different in it's sonic characteristics. The demo room I was in was probably treated as this was a high end store that sells Runco, B&W and the like. It was dark in there so I didn't really have a good look at the walls. The assumption is most likely correct since they are trying to setup an optimal environment for selling the equipment to perspective buyers. I have used Yamaha receivers in the past and feel that the HK has a much better calibration tool. That being said, I will "splurge" and get the SPL meter this weekend and tune up the good old Polks. My room isn't too bad sonically as I have wall to wall carpenting, a bookshelf and plenty of furniture throughout the space. But, if I can find those accoustic panels I mentioned, I will grab some of those puppies. The WAF factor on those will be mighty low....but so is everything else I try to do with that room (recessed lighting, 106 inch Carada Screen, mounted projector..etc etc..) I do know from experience that good room treatment can make even crappy speakers sound decent. My buddy built a full scale theater in his basement and fully treated the room for sound. But, there is a limit to how much performance you get. If you put say some Axioms or Rockets in that space I'm sure they'd blow his gear away. Because they are better speakers. So, for now I will try the SPL meter and maybe a few accoutic panels. I will probably still upgrade the speakers but will see what these two items can bring out of my current system. Thanks again for all the helpful comments. Even if you are living in a crappy room!!
"What's the writing on that treasure chest say...EP600?"
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Re: What should I upgrade?
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 28
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OP
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Joined: May 2006
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Guys and gals, Here is the link to the accoustic panels I was referring to. They are the GIK 244 absorption panels. Sounds like a no brainer to get these puppies. But like I said, they will probably have a very low WAF unless you can color match to your walls so they are less noticable. http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/acoustics/gik-acoustics-244-absorption-panel-reviewEnjoy!
"What's the writing on that treasure chest say...EP600?"
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Re: What should I upgrade?
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 13
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frequent flier
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 13 |
Quote:
Quote:
I'd upgrade your room acoustics so you can hear exactly how each piece of equipment really sounds
What does that mean? Is the reason I can't hear how my economical receiver is affecting my signal because I don't have any room treatments? Even with ideal acoustic treatments in each, room A will sound different than room B.
I'm on the side of those recommending a speaker upgrade first. While the room is very important, your speakers are what will make or break your whole system. Just look at MarkSJohnson. He's got the world crappiest room but he still loves his Axioms.
..........And he just might love them more if the resonances in his room (modes), early reflections peaks and nulls (via standing waves) and other sonic issues (that an untreated room can yield) were under control.
Here is the point:
When you purchase a sound system, you want to hear the full potential of such and reap the benefits of all the components that went into creating this sonic work of art, right? Then why not spend a little more to ensure you are hearing the pure sound from this sound source and not your vibrating room along with it? If you are sitting in your listening position, and you have reflections from walls, ceilings and other objects arriving at different times and the pure sound of your new Axiom or other system is fighting these reflections to bring the clarity and nuances of said system to your ears, what is the point in an other component upgrade when you never got to REALLY know what your last piece of gear (speaker, amp, etc) was doing? I agree that some sound systems can sound better than others no matter what, (AXIOM!) but why not maximize your listening experience by attending to some basic room issues that most rooms suffer from and KNOW that you allowing your new sound system to perform at its peak?
Read more here: Room Modes and Treatment
Low frequencies resonances: Bass modes that build up in corners and at other boundaries that can destroy your stereo imaging and produce muddy overtones.
Early reflections: Sound travels from the sound source to your ear, right? Not in an untreated room! MANY reflections can arrive at your ears at different times, and in some cases, your brain must go through very complicated processes to tell YOU that you aren’t hearing all of those reflections. This is called the Haas Effect and can lead to ear fatigue and general smearing of your sound.
Standing Waves : When two boundaries are coupled by resonances between them (two walls facing each other, and vibrating in unison to create a curved wave) you get peaks and nulls that can be as much as 30db in difference! When you use bass traps (etc), you can decouple that standing wave and create a more uniform sound field overall.
Now, I will tell you that you can make VERY nice looking treatments on your own, and even get your spouse involved in picking a fabric that SHE likes. I built a tutorial on how to do this with components from any hardware store and would be glad to share it here.
Finally, I have NEVER-ever had someone come to me after their room was treated with some minimal absorption units (such as GIK acoustic panels mentioned in this thread) and tell that it wasn’t worth it. Never. I have however had zillions of folks contact me after treating their rooms and ask the same question time and time again: Why didn’t I do this to begin with?”
I hope this information helps (a little).
See also this thread about room resonances: Room Modes and Treatment
Cheers,
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Re: What should I upgrade?
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2
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newbie
Joined: Apr 2007
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This thread raises questions that make for interesting discussion but in my opinion the answers for same can’t be given as generalized firm conclusions. This is a “boxers or briefs” underwear question – and like all such questions the best answer in my view is as Bob Dole famously resolved: “Depends”.
I would grant as a premise to the discussion that your system can’t sound any better than your speakers – just as it can’t sound any better than the program material you choose to play.
Speakers are that fundamentally important. If you don’t pick superlative music to play, the output of the system, in the end, can’t be superlative, and by the same token if your output transducers are not superlative… well you get the idea.
I would further agree that program reading components [CD players], amps, and cabling can all be had in the current market for very low costs on a comparative basis versus the cost of pursuing excellence in speakers. This is not surprising given that all the gear upstream of the speakers has become by comparison trivial to produce to exacting tolerances and tight specs thanks to modern manufacturing techniques and the state of the art in electronic circuit design. Speaker builders at the top end of the food chain on the other hand don’t have equal access to the electronic wizardry and mass production advantages that for example a CD player builder does.
Because of the fact a speaker by definition must interact with the real world [move air in a controlled fashion] one simply doesn’t have the ability to short-cut around big problems inherent in the laws of physics with mass produced IC chips or a fat read ahead buffer.
If you want a speaker to produce tight controlled low frequency sound you have to use a high quality low frequency driver [not a trivial thing to produce], and you have to mount it in a very stiff box built to exacting standards… design a x-over circuit that matches the abilities of the LF driver, precisely mount HF elements, taking into account time coherence… and on and on... all the while implementing these design elements at a real world scale. In short, you can’t micro-process your way around the challenges of sound production at the speaker end of the system with anything close to the facility one can use such techniques further up stream.
As a result I would consider it silly for person to divide up their system budget on anything approaching an equal basis between electronics and speakers. The rational choice to me is obvious… you heavily weight your budget to getting the best speakers you can afford.
But when it comes to acoustic treatment of a space, one runs into a very similar set of choices. Your system can’t sound better than the room you put it in, and in small rooms [less than 7,000 cubic feet or so – on the order of 19x37x10’] the laws of physics leave you with conditions that electronic wizardry cannot address. For example, the modal density in small room results in the inability of an untreated space to produce smooth, tight-sounding low frequency resonances. And this is true no matter how much you paid for your speakers.
The example given above of a 19x37x10’ room has a 38 distinct resonances below 100 Hz [Axials=10, Tangentials=20, Obliques=8]. That’s 38 frequency zones supported by the natural reverb field of the room… alternatively an 11x12x8’ room has only 8 [Axials=4, Tangentials=3, Obliques=1]. In the smaller room you’ll never get your sound system to have anything approaching the smooth low frequency response it will exhibit in the larger room absent acoustic treatment. Therefore, it is rational to budget accordingly.
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Re: What should I upgrade?
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 16,441
shareholder in the making
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shareholder in the making
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Fantastically elucidating post, Scott. You've set quite a high bar for yourself as far as post quality and signal to noise ratio goes. I hope you can keep it up.
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Re: What should I upgrade?
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 11,458
shareholder in the making
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shareholder in the making
Joined: Sep 2004
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Quote:
Fantastically elucidating post, Scott. You've set quite a high bar for yourself as far as post quality and signal to noise ratio goes.
I'll cover the other end, with fantastically-long posts that taste like air!
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::
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Re: What should I upgrade?
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 13
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See, I told you. They just think you are more cuddly than me!
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