Re: AVR What to buy, need help???
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 79
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 79 |
Ok, I have to weigh in on this one. if you haven't persoanlly heard the difference between a budget AVR and a really good AVR or in particular a pre/pro/amp setup then i suggest you find a way to do so or not be so quick to make such broad sweeping statements as JohnK and others have and continue to make. JohnK, you are obviously very well read on audio gear and music but what systems have you heard and or compared? I think by the way you and others preach this nonsense that its very limited.
The case really comes to point when talking about big, power hungry speakers with low ohm requirements such as the M80's as a very good example and there are many others that are much more demanding. I suspect Mdrew will have alot of problems getting any where near his Mirantz' performance AND sound from that baby Yamaha avr, not gonna happen with M80's.
Emotiva DMC1, MPS-1 ,M80v2 ,Klipsch RC64,Mirage Omni260 surrounds,Paradigm PW2200 sub
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Re: AVR What to buy, need help???
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,444 Likes: 16
connoisseur
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connoisseur
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,444 Likes: 16 |
Quote:
Quote:
but common, a $500 receiver with “new” technology can not compete with a $12,000 Lexicon Pre/Pro.
Can't it, though? You may not be able to easily lift the Lexicon Pre/Pro with one hand, but I'm willing to bet you'd have a hard time distinguishing between the two in a double-blind listening test. You just gave us a perfect example of how seeing a piece of equipment affects your opinion of it.
Actually your comment is a perfect example of someone making assumptions to support their position.
I called it a POS not simply because of its weight. It has CHEAP everywhere. Cheesy plastic speaker connections, a volume knob that wiggles, light gauge case, light gauge face plate, very thin and cheap display panel plastic….and weight. And that’s after a quick one minute look over.
But again, I’ll get to “hear it” this weekend.
If anyone has already passed judgment and unwilling to accept truth, it would be the One-Watt-Is-Enough club.
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Re: AVR What to buy, need help???
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 138
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 138 |
Well - could anyone tell me where to find the blind tests? A quick search finds many references to such tests, but no actual, you know, links to reports of the tests themselves. (well, there's a second hand description here: http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/1/18030.htmlwhich might lead me somewhere eventually). The power requirements are one thing, and that makes perfect sense. But within the limits of a particular reciever, I don't see a *necessary* reason for noticeable differences in sound quality. Show me the data, please!
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Re: AVR What to buy, need help???
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 138
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 138 |
Quote:
it would be the One-Watt-Is-Enough club.
I'm quite certain that's a strawman position. No one is claiming that a 1-watt amp is all anyone needs.
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Re: AVR What to buy, need help???
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,444 Likes: 16
connoisseur
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connoisseur
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,444 Likes: 16 |
Quote:
Quote:
it would be the One-Watt-Is-Enough club.
I'm quite certain that's a strawman position. No one is claiming that a 1-watt amp is all anyone needs.
You haven't been hanging around here very long. Just do a search. Some folks make that claim over and over again. OK, you got me. They think three watts is enough or that any Walmart $100 receiver will sound as good as a McIntosh set up.
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Re: AVR What to buy, need help???
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 138
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 138 |
I've done a LOT of reading here and elsewhere, and the only times I've seen such claims is when someone is attributing them to some unnamed other person.
If you actually know of someone making these claims, feel free to point me. I've never seen it. I've never seen ANYONE recommend a 3-watt amp and/or reciever. I've never seen ANYONE saying that "any" receiver is as good as the best receiver.
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Re: AVR What to buy, need help???
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,349
connoisseur
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connoisseur
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,349 |
Such a hot topic of debate. To the OP, you will find two distinct camps of people on this subject. On the one hand, those like JohnK who point only to the empirical evidence. Electrons are electrons, and provided that the physical abilities of the AVR are not exceeded (clipping, etc), then all receivers and pre-processors sound the same. It's simple science, and everything else is simply hubris of the human psyche. On the other hand, you have all of the home theater industry and many folks that passionately believe that different products sound different, and that a $10,000 prepro/amp stack will sound better than a $99 HTIB receiver. So who's right? Both. Neither. Here's my opinion. You can print it out and hang it on the wall, or send it to the recycle bin, it matters not to me. As a physical phenominon, sound is sound. It is measurable. Those measurements may support that the sound is the always the same. All sorts of instruments can be used to detect, test, and compare the physical properties of sound. Blind comparisons may show that there really aren't many (if any) differences. But music isn't measurable. Music is experienced differently by different people. It is absolutely subject to emotion, taste, and perception. Blind comparisons remove those factors from the equation, and it's no different than trying to do a wine tasting by removing the grapes. I like jazz, you like classical. Norah Jones' voice moves me to tears, yet does nothing for you, etc. Sound quality is highly subjective, just as 'Art' is subjective. You can say that all Art is Art, but it effects different people differently, even though various hues or techniques may be identical. So if I spend $10k on a prepro/amp stack because I believe that it sounds better, and it creates a more worthwhile and enjoyable musical experience than a $99 HTIB, then no one has any right to tell me that I'm wrong. The perception of sound quality is exactly that, a perception. Perception is not only influenced by the physical characteristics of the sound and one's hearing ability, but also the type of music, the happiness of the listener, events that are transpiring in our lives, and a myriad of other factors. So do (some) more expensive receivers sound better than (some) cheaper ones? To me, yes, they do. Whether those improvements are real or imaginary, they are pleasing to me and make spending the extra money worthwile. This is, after all, a hobby and the point of it is to bring some joy and pleasure to your life. Make no judgements based on internet chatter. Get out there and listen. Take advantage of money-back guarantees. The land of home theater isn't Orwellian, where you will only buy the Big Brother's Voice Mark I receiver and you will agree that it is the best sounding receiver in existence. Audition! Experience! Critique! Buy the one that meets your needs (features, connections, wattage), you can afford, and that makes you happy.
Last edited by PeterChenoweth; 05/17/07 03:07 PM.
M80v2 | VP150v2 | QS8v2 SVS Pci+ 20-39 Emotiva UMC-1 & LPA-1 M22ti + T-Amp, in the Office
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Re: AVR What to buy, need help???
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 138
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 138 |
Quote:
So if I spend $10k on a prepro/amp stack because I believe that it sounds better, and it creates a more worthwhile and enjoyable musical experience than a $99 HTIB, then no one has any right to tell me that I'm wrong.
Well, in this case it seems likely there would be a real difference in many ways, but I simply don't agree with the idea that "if someone says they hear a difference, then you can't tell them they're wrong". While it's their right to spend the money how they like, I think it's borderline criminal to charge $10000 for the placebo effect.
ABE: I mean, people here have no trouble whatsoever saying that $1000/meter speaker cable is a waste of money with no performance advantages, and no arguments ensue. (Some places, arguments will ensue. I try to avoid those places).
Clearly, amps/receivers are more complicated stories - much more complicated.
But the answer as to whether sound quality varies is itself a VERY simple question. Blind testing. Either you can tell a difference or you can't. There may be some technical difficulties in getting matched dB levels, etc., but far tougher experiments are successfully run everyday.
The great thing about this is it doesn't rely on theories of sound perception, or even understanding much about the innards of the equipment itself. It's all about: what do people report hearing - which is what this is all about, right?
For things like power cables and speaker wires, the answer is clearcut and overwhelming: no differences within normal variation. Sure, if you use 120 gauge wire in 500 ft streches, you'll have problems, but by and large there's no detectable differences in $1/ft wire and $1000/ft wire.
I haven't really seen much in the way of amp/receiver testing of this sort. I'd love to. I said before I see no *necessary* reason there would be sound quality differences. I stand by that. I also see no *necessary* reason why there wouldn't.
If anyone can point me to real data, I'd be thrilled.
Last edited by zhimbo; 05/17/07 03:37 PM.
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Re: AVR What to buy, need help???
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 138
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 138 |
Well, I've found 1 actual report. http://avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=607389Not a wide ranging test, but a "null" finding. Most references I've found are to non-internet sources, so are harder to track down.
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Re: AVR What to buy, need help???
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 683
aficionado
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aficionado
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 683 |
Amp Comparison It's an older article, but it still applies. There's a low priced receiver thrown in with higher end amps. Show me any similar testing that contradicts this and I will listen. Double blind testing is the only way I know of to remove emotion / eyes from the equation. If someone truly believes their $10,000 Krell amp sounds so much better than a $500 Denon, Yamaha,etc in terms of sound quality, then a double-blind test should end all discussion. I just haven't EVER heard of that situation to date.
Epic 80 / SVS PB13 Ultra Denon 3805 / M2200 Outlaw Monos / Sammy 55" LED
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