Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Another Mini Review – Yamaha RX-V661

Not to bore anyone with my story of bad luck and troubles with receivers, the short story for my buying this receiver is to tide me over while my Marantz SR 8001 is in the shop getting repaired.

Physical / build quality –

Considering that I paid $499 shipped to my door for this receiver, I wasn’t expecting much. I wasn’t disappointed when I pulled it out of the box either. The 661 is one of the lightest receivers I’ve ever had. Closer touching and feeling of this thing confirmed my initial thoughts that the sheet metal case and front panel are made of fairly light weight metal. The control knobs turn just fine and don’t feel cheesy, but Yamaha could have made them a bit more robust. Good thing we all use remotes nowadays because I doubt these knobs will take much abuse. The speaker binding posts are pathetic but they do accommodate banana jacks, so that’s a plus. They are plastic with an aluminum lining. This is one bitch I have with my Marantz too. All my HK's had stout as hell binding posts with gold plated inserts. The power cord isn’t much thicker than a lamp cord, so I suspect the power supply isn’t very taxing. Moving on……

Connections –

Not too many gazintas and gazoutas on this thing, but how many does one need anyway? I’m just used to seeing receivers with many more. The important thing for me is it has two HMDI inputs and one HDMI output. The HDMI version is 1.2a. It also has a component video output, which is a really good thing because the OSD and set up menu do not output over HDMI. Without the component output to my projector, I’d have been pissed trying to set this thing up. For more info on the inputs / outputs, you can hop on over to Yamaha.com or try to make them out on my crappy pictures below.

Set up –

For those who don’t know already, I use a stand alone video processor (DVDO VP-50). All my sources go to the VP first, and it has one HMDI output that goes to my receiver. From the receiver, an HDMI cable goes to my projector. I have the VP’s output set to 1080P/24 Blue Ray and HD/DVD and 1080P/60 for and satellite and SD/DVD. The receiver does nothing more than strip the audio off the HDMI feed and passes the video stream on to my projector. It is very important to me to have a receiver that will pass 1080P without molesting it. The 661 appears to pass it without issue.

Set up is pretty darn simple. Any idiot can do within minutes. The manual isn’t all that bad to follow, but I didn’t really read it so I reckon I’ll find out exacly how good it is sooner or later. I used the auto set up feature to see how close it would get everything. I plugged in the little mic and in about five minutes, the dead was done. It got all the distances spot on and the DB level of each speaker was perfect. The sub however was all screwed up. It put the sub at 1 foot, so I changed that to 16’ (ten feet away + 6’). It also had every speaker set to large…..weird. I haven’t seen that trick before either. I eventually changed them all to small and set the X-over to 80. I wanted to hear it as is first and will get to that in a minute.

This thing has a gazillion different pre-set parameters for all sorts of different sound fields. I flipped through some of them and was farly impressed. Some sound pretty darn good, and some down right suck too though….You can set this receiver up to have different sound fields with different inputs and even tweak them to your liking. I don’t have patience for that crap, so it’s running straight right now.

Performance –

Again, for those who don’t know, I have M80 mains and I run a set of M22’s in Parallel for my center channel for a 4 ohm front wall load. I was curious to see if this receiver would drive them, and if it would, just how well. With the mains set to large still, I popped in the SACD, Pink Floyd, DSOTM. This is my favorite test CD for new gear and I know it well. This is where I encountered my first issue. I don’t know why, but there appears to be a HDMI handshake issue with the 661 and SACD. It would just drop the signal and then pick it up again if I skip tracks. If I just let it play, it does fine. I’m not sure if it’s the receiver or my VP, but I don’t really care because I rarely use this system for music anyway.

When I had the Marnatz hooked up I could play the track “TIME” and after all the alarm clock clatter and the track settles down some, I could pin the volume on the Marnantz and the SPL meter would read between 105 and 110 DB’s. This is in a pretty small room too….(12’ X 16’ X 8.5’) Knowing this, I gave the 661 a spin with the same track. 90 to 96 db is as loud as I could get it to go before it shut itself down. Not bad, not bad at all considering it’s only rated at 90 wpc and Yamaha usually overestimates their ratings. The odd thing however is it took out my Belkin battery back up / power conditioner in over load. The Marantz wouldn’t ever get the load meter above 70%, at full volume. It would appear this Yamaha is drawing more current as the Marantz. I’ll have to experiment some more with this thing. I ended up plugging the 661 into Belkin power conditioner instead of the battery back up. One other thing is this little feller gets hot!! Wholly crap it get’s hot! I can barely hold my hand on the thing. The Marantz wouldn’t even get warm. And yes, it's well ventelated.

So after that little test I changed the mains from large to small and gave it a go again. This time I was able to get the room DB’s up to 96 – 100 dbs before it would shut down. Much better…

As much as I wanted to believe that my Marantz would blow away this “budget” receiver in sound quality, I just don’t hear it. In direct stereo and pure direct stereo, I’ll be damned if I can tell a difference between the two. The ONLY difference I could tell was the in-between track times when there is no music playing. With the Marantz, there is complete silence. With the 661 I can pick out a very, very slight white noise hisssss…. But other than that, it sounds great.

I then popped in the SD / DVD movie Turistas. I started watching this movie last night with the Marantz in the rack and wanted to play a couple scenes again with the 661 to see how it handles LFE in comparison with the Marnantz. I was impressed once again. I think that Audysey has Yamaha’s room EQ beat, but the Yamaha is definitely no slouch in this department either. I kept toggling the EQ on and off and prefer it on.

To see how well this unit plays HD audio, I put in the Blue Ray movie Decent. Decent is one of the few disks with a discrete 6.1 channel Uncompressed PCM track on it. Not all HDMI receivers process LPCM multi channel very well and only a small group processes anything over 5.1 channels. Well the 661 processes 6.1 just fine. It doesn’t simply matrix into 7.1 either, it recognizes all channels and plays them all. The only 7.1 source that I am aware of is a PS3 game, Resistance Fall of Man. I put this in to test it, and sure enough, all seven channels play. I’m not a gamer, but my kid is. I miraculously survived for a few minutes playing this game and hid in a corner of some building while monsters were shooting at my back. This was way cool to hear. I could tell EXACTLY where the bullets were coming from directly behind me while other monsters were running at me from the sides. Another problem some receivers have with LPCM is when it has a rate above 96 kHz. There aren’t many disks out above 48 anyway, but there are a few. Batman Returns is one with 5.1 channel LPCM at 96 kHz. The Yamaha played this just fine, including matrixing the 5.1 into 7.1. Another score for the Yama… .

I still have some more tweaking to do, but as of right now, I’m very impressed with this little receiver. For $500, I don’t think anyone could go wrong with it. It does better with HDMI audio than many other receivers and Pre/Pros selling for 300% more and up….including my Marantz. I might just keep this in my rack and get rid of the Marantz. I would have to pick up another amp, but for those running 8 ohm speakers in a similar sized room as mine, I suspect this little guy would do just fine.

I’m tired of typing, so if anyone has further questions, fire away. I’m outa things to say.

Thanks for the thorough and brutally honest review, Mike. I was surprised the thing was able to handle the M80s and paralleled-M22 fronts so decently. I wonder how long it would be able to drive them at low 90+dB levels before it went into thermal protection.

LMFO....and clippping beyond all recognition..you guys make me laff

wanna hear a really rockin setup?...pm me

LMFO? Laughing My Face Off? Laughing My Foot Off? Laughing My Fanny Off?

I'm confused. ???

Its all about slam baby!!...love the M80's!

Didn't I tell you that you'd love them? And now you've become an evangelist like the rest of us.

They sound even better when you've had a few dozen beer in you, eh? Judging by your posts, it sounds like you've been having fun tonight .

Nice review Mike. Have you tried running the 80s full range with no sub? I would be curious how it would fare.

Thanks for typing that up, Mike.

It sounds like the 661 makes a decent pre/pro? How do you like the user interface?

Thx Mike for taking the time for your review. Interesting and honest input. Good stuff...

I love the honesty in that review.

I'm actually running this older, low end Yamaha 5730 with my M80's, VP150 and QS8's and it runs fine. I paid $120 for it, used. Best $120 I ever spent. It'll keep my speakers running until I move.

Great review, Mike! The 661 might just make for a good pre/pro to mate with my RB-1080.

Hi Mike,

Thanks very much for the great review. I have to admit that I am still very surprised that it shuts down at the level you reported. I wonder if it is shutting down because it is over-heating or because it detects distortion.

By the way, KlipschGuy had a few too many beer in him last night. In another post, he apologized for his posts.

I hope you continue to enjoy your Yamaha.

I don't see why anyone would be surprised the lower end Yamaha shuts down with the M80s when pushed beyond its limits. Like it has been said before, there is no magic involved, the amps are not robust enough for the job at hand.

Well, I am just curious whether it is shutting down due to over-heating or distortion. I suppose Mike can always blow a fan on it and see if it shuts down at the same level as before. If it does, most likely there is a clipping circuit in there that causes the shutdown.

I'm also curious because I have a very low end Denon and I have not been able to get it to shut down with one hour of playing at max (7.1). Of course it doesn't sound good when it's maxed out. And no, I haven't blown my tweeters .

I was pretty surprised it plays as loud as it does. 100 db’s isn’t exactly quiet. In a larger room it will be less, but still not bad.

For reference, I had my Radio Shack digital meter on a tri pod 12’ away from the mains and 11’ away from the center(s). I had it pointing straight up and I was using PLIIx so all speakers were being used.

I’ll try running the M80’s by themselves next Monday when I have the house to myself. My girlfriend already gives me weird looks, and I might have trouble explaining why I’m listening to music with ear muff on.

If it’s shutting down for heat reasons, there’s nothing I can do about it, nor do I want to. It’s on an EQ rack that is open to all sides, and it has 4” of air space between it and the next shelf. There is a fresh air supply duct in the EQ closet as well. As I said before, it runs hot to the touch. My Marantz didn’t even get warm on the same shelf.

I’m open to do any test you or anyone else would like me to do. I did contemplate moving it upstairs to my two channel rig in the great room where I’m using Rotel Seperates. I have about 4600 cubic feet in that area. But I’m burnt out on routing cables at the moment. That test will have to come later.

I'm not sure if it would be less in a larger room. My room is twice the size of yours and I achieve 110 dB (C, slow) with peaks higher than that. Maybe it's because my room is very live and yours is more damped...I don't know. It's just occured to me though that my Denon may be cranking out more than your Yamaha. Although my Denon is rated 90W/channel into 8 Ohms, it's also rated 125W/channel into 6 Ohms and 170Wx2 channels into 4 Ohms dynamically.

Holy long reviews mdrew.
Well worth reading though esp. for people who are always looking for a new AVR and like to compare brand x and brand y.

I really don't think it has enough connections though. You clearly need more.

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The ONLY difference I could tell was the in-between track times when there is no music playing. With the Marantz, there is complete silence. With the 661 I can pick out a very, very slight white noise hisssss…. But other than that, it sounds great.

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I've actually encountered a similar thing when A/B testing some amps. The 'noise floor' or background hiss is prominent on some far more than others. This was one of the few reasons why i decided against buying the Parasound Halo amps for my setup though Tharkun, somewhat lost now from the forums, had reported he heard no such artifacts with his setup.

I noticed this same noise with all three of my HK’s too (7200, 7300, 745). I do not hear it from the Marantz or my Rotel set up. But honestly, other than that and the higher volume / head room, I just can’t tell if this cheap Yamaha sounds worse or better than any other receiver I’ve had hooked up. That would be in direct stereo mode, not to be confused with surround modes. For surround, I will have to give the nod to the Marantz and that’s probably due to the Audysey room correction.

I think for the budget minded crowd that buys Axiom speakers would do well with this receiver and any 8 or 6 ohm speaker. The HDMI switching and high def audio processing is as good as it gets right out of the box without needed a firmware fix. I think that is a first for any receiver with HDMI audio processing. Plus, it passes 1080P at all formats without any issue that I can see. And with the pre-outs, it would make a fine pre / pro to go along with the A-1400 (at least that’s what I’m thinking right now)

Quote:

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And with the pre-outs, it would make a fine pre / pro to go along with the A-1400 (at least that’s what I’m thinking right now)

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You know someday when i'm back in the Yukon, i'm going to take a sidetrip to Alaska to see this growing setup that you have.
Then i may have to rob you blind.

Hi Mojo and mdrew,

I suspect it's a thermal sensor that's shutting down the Yamaha when it gets really hot. But it could also be a current sensor into the output stage: when the low impedances of the M80s and paralleled M22s demand more current from the power supply, it senses that and, since it can't supply it, it just shuts down.

As to your Denon, Mojo, it may have a kind of "soft clipping" circuit in its output stage that rounds off the clipped square waveform and lessens the clipping distortion. It's a trick that NAD has used for years on its amplifiers which prevents the amplifier from producing the harsh, edgy distortion of a hard-clipped signal. Don't get me wrong; it's still distorting, but it's not as irritating as it would otherwise be without the soft clipping circuit.

One of the Denon AV receivers that we measured (actually, Tom Cumberland, Axiom's electronic engineer, did the bench tests) at Axiom's lab produced exactly its rated output into 8-ohm loads and the same output into 4-ohm loads. Class A/B amplifiers normally would produce much more output power into 4 ohms than into 8 ohms, so we concluded there was a circuit in the Denon that "clamped" or limited its current flow into a 4-ohm load and even when you turned it up, it wouldn't get louder. So in effect, it was a built-in limiter that prevented the Denon from going into hard clipping when presented with a 4-ohm load.

Of course, although your Denon doesn't shut down, it's still a limiter, preventing the true dynamics possible if you had a much more powerful separate amp.

I know my H/K AV receiver runs out of juice driving my 4-ohm M80s at high concert levels with really dymamic classical music. It doesn't overheat or shut down into 4-ohm loads, but on really dymamic material, the loudest orchestral peaks get a bit edgy and compressed . I think it's likely some kind of soft-clipping circuit in action. Can't wait until I get my own sample of the new Axiom multichannel amp.

Regards,

Alan,

I suspect you're right about the soft-clipping circuit in the Denon. It certainly sounds distorted when it's cranked to the max but it's not nearly as bad as my old two-channel Yamaha. When the Yamaha was cranked, the sound of saw-toothed waves was unmistakable. I ended up blowing a fuse in my old Bose 601s because of that stunt.

Further to my comments above, our testing of the Denon AV receiver and a few others was during the period when we were considering taking on the Sherwood Newcastle line. The Sherwoods we bench tested did not show the same characteristics when driving the 4-ohm loads. They produced more output power into 4 ohms and didn't current-limit the power-supply stage into low impedances, so long as you didn't drive them beyond their stated limits. This aspect of the Sherwood's amplifiers really impressed us, which is why we decided to carry the line.

Regards,

Got around to doing some more testing / listening after everyone vacated the house this morning.

I decided to forgo the earmuffs so that I could listen for straining and clipping better. I turned the sub off and set the receiver to pure direct stereo with the M80’s set to large and LFE to the front.

I put DSOTM back in and gave it a whirl. Although this a great sounded CD, it isn’t very dynamic, or loud. That being said, I was able to pin the volume on the receiver without it shutting down. Peak DB’s were 110. That’s the positive. The negative is it sounded like crap. Sound quality started to go south at -10 db on the volume control which was an average db of 95 with peaks to 100. After around 95, I could noticeably tell that things just sounded strained, not clear and the mids just lost their slam. As I turned the volume up, it just kept getting worse. I didn’t leave it pinned for but a few seconds for fear of long term hearing loss and fear that it was screwing up my drivers. At full volume the average DB was 104 db with this CD. The track I used was “Time” and I didn’t crank it till after all the clocks were done ringing.

After DSOTM, I put in one of my favorite new disks. Carbon Leaf, Indian Summer. I think Mark Johnson would even approve of this disk. It’s mastered well for an Alt Rock type CD. Plus, I just like the music and if I’m going to go deaf listening to something, I want to like it. The second track “What About Everything” has a lot of vocals but also has some pretty dynamic drums and guitar. This track has about an 8 DB range. Not so surprising, it sounded very good till the average db was about 95 with peaks around 103. Clarity and detail just started to fade into a muddled mix of crap and even at this volume; the peaks were starting to loose clarity and slam. I didn’t even try to pin the volume with this CD – what’s the point? Out of morbid curiosity, I still bumped up the volume to where the average was 105 db’s with peaks around 112. This was at a +5 of a max +15 on the control knob. It did not shut down, but again, I did not leave it there for but a few seconds. At no point during any of this foolery did the speakers go into a hard clip. The music just sounds like crap.

Seeing how my ears were already buzzing, I decided to pop this CD in my two channel rig. This one has a Rotel RB 1080 / RC 1070 comb driving a pair of Wharfdale Opus 2’s in a 32’ X 28’ space with vaulted 22’ ceilings. Ya I know, completely different speakers and electronics, but I was still curious. At about 7/8 volume, even though it was very loud (114 – 120 dbs) and it was hard to not wince, sound quality was starting to degrade. I did not try to pin the volume for three reasons 1) sound was degrading 2) it was simply too dam loud 3) my neighbor across the street was giving me a really bizarre look. Now I’m wondering if I need a different amp for this set up another set of M80's because I could pin the volume when I had them in this room.

So for you engineer types, here’s the specs off the Yamaha for you to ponder and speculate over.


AUDIO SECTION
• Minimum RMS Output Power for Front, Center, Surround,
Surround back
20 Hz to 20 kHz, 0.06% THD, 8 Ω ...................................... 90 W
• Dynamic Power (IHF)
Front L/R, 8/6/4/2 Ω ..................................... 120/155/190/235 W
• Maximum Useful Output Power (JEITA)
[Asia, General, China and Korea models]
1 kHz, 10% THD, 6 Ω ....................................................... 130 W
• Maximum Output Power [U.K., Europe and Asia models]
1 kHz, 0.7% THD, 4 Ω ...................................................... 140 W
• Dynamic Headroom
8 Ω ....................................................................................... 1.4 dB
• IEC Output Power [U.K., Europe and Asia models]
Front L/R, 1 kHz, 0.06% THD, 8 Ω ................................... 100 W
• Damping Factor (IHF)
Front L/R, SPEAKERS A, 20 Hz to 20 kHz, 8 Ω
.................................................................................. 120 or more
• Input Sensitivity/Input Impedance
PHONO (MM) ........................................................ 3.5 mV/47 kΩ
CD, etc. ................................................................. 200 mV/47 kΩ
MULTI CH INPUT ............................................... 200 mV/47 kΩ

Your Yamaha isn't much different than my low-end Denon. Actually, it's dynamic rating is higher than my Denon. You should be pretty happy with it as it provides you with more than enough power.

I wouldn't spend any more money on the 2-channel rig. Save up and buy an EP600 instead .

I am curious how you like the Wharfedales in comparison to the Axioms.

Uhmmm...I meant yet another EP600 .

Mike, it hasn't been mentioned yet, and in case you haven't studied it, here's the lab report and review on the 661 from the new June S&V(presumably you also set the impedance to 8 ohms rather than the lower setting).

sounds like a pretty good receiver..

Would this receiver be likely to shut down when powering the 6ohm vp150 and 2 qs8's combined with m60s and ep 500; or could I crank these speakers up to their full potential with this receiver?

T, certainly it's highly likely that the 661(or other similar units)could drive those speakers with no problem. As always, with any amplifier, it depends on how loudly you play it and how wide the dynamic range of the material being played is.

great review, im thinking of buying a yamaha rx v661 or a marantz sr4001 what do you recomend and why ?

what reciver you think is better multiple choice, up to 2 choices

yamaha rx v661 (100%, 1 Votes)

marantz 4001 (0%, 0 Votes)

Total Votes: 1 Voting on this poll ends: 08/21/07 12:34 AM