Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo My new speakers--a review

In my ongoing struggles with trying to find acceptable ways of getting full range sound in my small room, I decided I needed a change. I've always enjoyed the sound of bookshelf speakers--small, easy to place, versatile, etc., but the Achilles' heel is usually limited bass response. It's not that noticeable until I'd take a CD out to the HT rig, and find more parts to the music revealed by the subwoofer. "Why not use a sub, or subs, in your two-channel rig?" you might ask. Well, I have, and I just didn't like it. It seems I could never get the integration quite right. I suspect this may largely be due to user error (me), but I've tried multiple placements, multiple subs, varying phase, line-level connections, speaker level connections, and what have you, all to less than satisfactory results. So, my answer was to look for full range speakers.

Well, after looking at my ongoing "speaker wishlist," I decided to go with Odyssey Loreleis. Yeah, I know, you guys are probably sick of hearing about Odyssey products here, but Klaus makes good products with excellent customer service. Besides, it was my choice. So there :P

Initially, when I talked to Klaus I wanted to go with a new unnamed midline speaker, but then decided to go "whole hog" with the flagship. On paper, the Lorelei's are 6 ohm 89dB two-way speakers with a frequency response of 32-22,000 Hz. Seems a bit dubious asking that much out of two drivers, but those numbers are accurate, and then some. Curious about the actual in-room bass response, I did some casual measurements using the Hsu test CD. From my normal listening position and using my Rat Shack SPL meter, these are some of the numbers that I got:

80hz--74.5dB
63hz--69.5dB
50hz--79.5dB
40hz--82.5dB
31.5hz--76dB
25hz--69dB
20hz--66.5dB

I applied the SPL meter corrections from the Rives Audio site to those numbers. To me, these speakers do a more than fair job of representing a full range of sound, and that's exactly what I was looking for. For fun, I played Saint-Saens "Symphony No. 3 in C Minor" by Ormandy with the Philadelphia Orchestra and Biggs, and still got a sense of the power and scope of the work. No, the Loreleis couldn't capture some of the lowest tones, but neither did they embarrass themselves. Another surprise was the gentle organ undertones on Feist's "Let It Die" which gives the song a nice floor to work off of. Before, on my bookshelf speakers, the organ was certainly heard, but not felt. It is not a groundbreaking difference, but subtle enough to really lend gravity to the song.

You'd think having one driver handle low and midbass duties would muddy things up, but no. These Scanspeak drivers really over-perform in their duties and don't break a sweat while doing so. One of my favorites for sharp attacking drums is Spoon's "I Turn My Camera On." Again, the speakers do not disappoint. The snare and kick drum come in sharp and well-defined. The snare, a sharp crack, and the bass, a concise thud. Overall, the interplay between the low and midbass sounds remarkable to me. It's almost as if there are two separate drivers working together to form the bottom end. To play both ends of the spectrum with such clarity and power makes me keep popping in CD after CD to enjoy the sound.

For a while, the two main speakers that I used (and reviewed here) were Monitor Audio GR10s and Axiom M40s. The former excel at detail and a forward sound, and the latter present a warm, slightly recessed sound. Well, I'd say the Lorelei's are an almagam of both--not as quite in-your-face as the GR10s, but still retaining the articulation, all the while having the lush midrange of the M40s. Simply put, I would say the Odyssey speaker is richly detailed. One of the first CDs I put on when I initially set up the speakers was Modest Mouse's "Good News for People Who Love Bad News." The trumpets on the "Horn Intro" came on very smooth without the cringe inducing blare I have heard on other speakers. It's kinda hard to explain. There was a definite bite to the horns, but the last little bit of ringing overhang was absent--a clean and pleasing finish.

Along with the silky smoothness of the tweeter, there is also detail--subtle intakes of breath, distinct sound of the pick on guitar strings, fingers moving up and down the fret. Man, it seems like I could go on and on with the cliches, but I feel I get to be on on a bit more of intimate terms with the music.

Individual performances of the tweeter and woofer aside, their ability to play together is what's most important. Top to bottom the sound is very cohesive, forming a dynamic sound with resolving detail. Instruments are well defined, as well as multiple voices. When hearing double tracked vocals, I get a sense of a duet with two of the same voices, rather than a smearing of the two. Likewise, on dense material, such as "Worlds Apart" by ...And You Will Know Us by the Trail of Dead, a clearer sense of each instrument was more defined in the cacophony of sound. Rather than a blob of music, I heard a band making a lot of noise (I don't know how else to say it better).

And now for the bad. As is the case with most Axiom owners, some of those old CDs just don't cut the mustard. Not just old CDs, but poorly recorded ones. Sadly, with the purchase of new speakers that play exceptionally well, the gap between good and bad mastering widens considerably. What a shame. The other day, I was in the mood for some Stone Temple Pilots--ugh, compressed and flat. Almost no dynamic range to the music--just a singular plane of sound. Cranking up the volume sort of helped, but not much. The first week with the Loreleis I made the mistake of listening to three poorly recorded CDs in a row. I thought something was wrong with the speakers--the sound was flat and recessed--until I remembered the difference between sound quality on CDs and put on something good. Like I said, it really is a shame. Good recordings shine. Music is spacious and lush and involving and dynamic and. . .well. . .better. Bad recordings are poo-like. Sad thing is, now, they are much more noticeable in their poo-ness. Such is the Catch-22 of high fidelity.

In the end, I know I like the Loreleis because I listen to them. A lot. What is immediately present with speakers is all well and good, but the true test is longevity. Like a well-worn Axiom forum saying, I trust my ears to tell me whether I like speakers or not. For the most part, I've always had a hard time listening to speakers in a store for 2 minutes and deciding whether or not I like the sound. I've found that most good speakers sound more alike than bad ones. To discover to what extent the differences are I need to spend time with them. So far so good with the new ones.

Here are some pics:






This last is a shot of a port-tuning experiment. I read about using straws cut to the length of the port to help control bass. Rather than stuffing the port with foam, or a sock, the straws reduce the port size while still allowing the passage of air. You know, it works! I've minimized some of the boom while still retaining a low end. Come to think of it, the frequency measurements I took above are with the straws in place. I guess I'll have to remove them and remeasure to get what the actual effect is.

On a side note, I had to monkey around with the pics to reduce some of the flash effects of the camera. I tried to show the dark rich grain. The last two pics are very close to the actual color.

Nice! Sean, I'm glad you got your Loreleis, very nice looking. Guess what, my Khartago face plates are on the way, Klaus forgot in his old age.

Congratulations on the new purchase! It's always so much fun. As much as I'm enjoying my system, I'm still looking ahead to possibly building a separate two-channel system for music. I still feel like I'm missing something.

First, I'll take my current system as far as I can within a reasonable budget. A second system would be an eventuality. I would like to hear the Linkwitz Labs Orions, as well as listen to the Anthony Gallo Acoustics Reference 3s some more. Of course, I'm also interested in whatever Axiom comes out with in the future. If I build a separate system, however, I'll probably want something quite different, for variety.

I'm glad the Loreleis are working out for you. I wouldn't mind hearing an Odyssey setup.

Thanks guys!

Randy, that reminds me. Klaus owes me cones for the bottoms of the speakers. If he forgot your faceplates I should definitely give him a call.

Charles, I've looked at the Orions and am interested to hear them, as well. I don't know if it can be changed, but they require lots of amplification. Yikes!

The speakers do look very nice. I imagine they sound more laid back than the Axioms, right? Also I'm curious what the volume of your room is.

I wonder if longer straws, to increase the port length, would reduce booming even further.

Congrats are in order. They are a really nice looking set of speakers. Those are the babies you have been waiting on

Sean, don't skimp; my calculations(taking into account your room size)indicate that seven more straws are required to achieve true quality sound.

I just want to urge caution with adding straws, for the sake of the camel.

I have to admit, before reading the accompanying text my first thought was "what a great idea; no more running back to the kitchen for straws".

By the way, Sean, thanks for getting me to listen to Feist's first album on my Axioms again. Besides the title track, I was impressed by the lower bass in "When I Was a Young Girl" and "Tout Doucement". I never really knew it was there. They're currently two of my favorite tracks to listen to. Spare arrangements, but showing off a wide range.

Edit: I forgot it's not her first album, but I can't get ahold of her first album, so it's essentially the first for normal people.

No prob, Charles. Actually, Jordan brought her up in the concert thread and made me pull the CD out of the collection.

Need to pick up her new album soon. Right after I get the new Smashing Pumpkins and Spoon albums. Oh, and maybe Interpol. All out on Tuesday.

Sean, I am just delighted for you! I sincerely hope I can hear your system some day.

I'm so glad you are enjoying the speakers. And I do NOT want to rain on your parade, diminish your enjoyment, challenge your ears (en garde!) or anything of the sort.

But your initial post made me think. A lot. And I would like to engage you and the collective about how and why these speakers sound "better".

For the sake of simplicity and civility, let's assume a couple of things for the moment (pretty please...)

1. These speakers are noticeably and legitimately "better" to you.
2. Relative to the "improvement", the additional cost was "worth it" to you (i.e. a good value in context).

I guess what I want to better understand is something like "Why do 'better' speakers cost more?"

I am particularly intrigued in this instance because the design seems so simple and elegant. It appears to be a ported two-way in a big box. Yet, you can measure that it plays deeper than other similar designs, and you perceive its other characteristics as preferable, too.

We can allow that the cabinetry is stellar, and that costs something.

I'm thinking that the following components might be valid reasons for the cost/performance difference compared to something like a VaSSallo M50, but would like comments.

1. Drivers. Clearly, these must be some custom and/or expensive drivers. It's not just a function of woofer cone size that allows the speaker to play that low; there are plenty of 8" two-ways that don't sound "good". Still, how many driver manufacturers are there, really? Do they do it in-house?

2. Crossovers. I'm guessing that we're talking about "premium parts" here also. But, seriously, this seems like a pretty mature field at the moment, and I wonder just how much money you CAN spend on this area. I know copper is expensive, but they're not THAT heavy. Is it the assembly? The R&D?

3. Research, Development and Design. Again, clearly a spendy item. But, this is not a "innovative" design except in the sum of its parts. How many engineering person years do they have to recoup here? What is the typical cost life cycle of something like this?

4. Manufacturing. How many do you build, where do you build them, how do you compensate the employees, etc. "Hand built in North America" is expensive, but worth it, IMO.

5. Scale. I think this is a pretty big deal, especially in light of the previous items. Odyssey is probably not selling so many copies of this product that it can amortize the associated design/build costs very well. There is a decidedly more limited market for this product at $2,700 than there would be at $1,200. And I do understand the current pricing is considered a bargain compared to the initial European version at roughly 3x the price.

Please understand, I'm glad for you. I'm envious. I'm just kind of curious where the margin is and how much it is on this type of product.

Respectfully,

Tom

What is MSRP on a set of these puppies?

Nice review (including mention of a $2,700 asking price) at http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/odyssey/lorelei.html

My opinion is that the margin is no larger than Axiom's. Axiom probably has higher labor and material productivity than Odyssey due to larger volumes.

Tom, thanks for the kind words. Please, do not feel bad about asking such questions--ya ain't gonna make me feel bad. I understand that speakers are a subjective matter and don't hold to the idea that my personal tastes are the measuring stick for all the world. Actually, those are questions I have given thought to, as well.

It's funny, when I began writing the review I started off with a paragraph about diminishing returns and such, but took it out in the end.

1. Drivers. They are both Scanspeak drivers. Easily available wherever speaker parts are sold. The tweeter is the 2905-9700, and the woofer is the 18W/8545. I think it is less about individual drivers with great specs, but more about two drivers that work well together. You could buy uber-expensive parts that may not sound good when paired up with each other.

2. Crossovers. Well, I tipped one speaker over on its side with the intent of removing the bottom to expose the crossover, but I got cold feet. Can't bring myself to do it. I don't exactly know how many components are in the crossover, but I do know (actually I don't, I'll have to take Klaus's word for it) Sonicap capacitors were used. He actually suggested the upgrade. I do not know enough, nor have heard a particular crossover with and without premium parts, to tell you whether the Sonicaps have a positive effect. It was simply an option I chose to splurge on just because I could.

3. Research and development. This probably is where savings are biggest. As far as I know, the Lorelei is basically a clone of the German Symphonic Line speaker. So, I don't think there are the associated costs to recoup.

4. Manufacturing. I believe Klaus runs a very small operation. I know he has at least one assistant, Alex, who also posts in the Odyssey forum at Audioholics. I don't know the actual number of employees. When you call Odyssey Audio you talk to Klaus. I will add this, whether it has any bearing or not, but when talking to Klaus he mentioned he loved doing what he does. To me, that means a lot. Yes, it's a business, but it's also a passion. In my dealings with him, I believe him. I think he is genuinely concerned with making sure customers get a product they will love. Of course, I cannot speak for the man, but these are my impressions after numerous conversations with him.

5. Scale. Hang on, I have to look up "amortize." Okay, there is probably very little overhead being such a small company. The cabinets are from a local source. They used to be made in Canada and shipped to him. Klaus recently went with a local source to better control quality and damage. Klaus told me he no longer uses UPS to ship to customers because the damage rate was 1 out of 3 speakers. If that is accurate, that is an atrocious number. Getting UPS to pay for a claim is a long lesson in futility. I picked my speakers up at the Ontario Airport through Southwest. Oops, I think this is more of a continuation of the #4 Manufacturing section. I don't think I can give you a good answer for this one, even after looking up "amortize." I majored in film, not business.

Extra thoughts--I work in purchasing and have a good grasp of margins between dealer cost and retail cost. Sometimes the difference is moderate, and other times it is grotesque. In Klaus's case of running a small operation, probably not buying in mass wholesale quantities, his cost may be somewhat high. Unless of course he has a special deal, or contacts to work with. In any case, I believe drivers and crossover components are pretty concrete in pricing structure. Barring any exotic materials, such as beryllium or diamonds, I don't think there should be much difference between similar drivers from different manufacturers. I think a lot of the exorbitant pricing from speaker makers is mainly in cabinetry and R&D. This is where the slippery slope of diminishing returns comes in. How much better can a $100,000 dollar speaker sound than a $3,000 one? At what point to physical components plateau before audio magic is being sold? Similarly, if two different speaker manufacturers are given the same drivers, how different will their respective final products sound? Well, the last question isn't so profound, but still a valid point. Leaps and bounds in overall sound differences pare down to levels of tweaking such sound. How much to spend on that tweak is the million dollar question.

My wish is that everyone is able to find a sound they are happy with for a price they are comfortable with. I would not begrudge anyone for choosing Bose speakers over the Loreleis based on preferences of taste. How can I say this. . .

I will go out on a limb and say there is a horrible audio snobbery that exists on some audio forums. Yes, I know that is a generalized statement, but it is based on flame wars you see about "this speakers sounds better than that speaker" because: it is more expensive, it has better drivers, it comes from a reputable company, it's my speaker choice and not yours, etc. I hate these because they are wars of opinion based on taste. It's like me opening a thread saying my favorite color is green, and then having others blast me saying, "No, it should be blue because. . ."

Okay, so maybe that wasn't so much of a limb, but the point is. . .well, I don't know what my point is. Shoot, I've been typing too long.

Tom, next time you're down in Southern California, let me know. I just missed you last time you came down. And please, don't feel like you're raining on my parade. That's why we have this forum--to talk about stuff like this! You should feel bad about making me type all afternoon. Well, I typed while watching the home-run derby and making dinner.

I just want to say I value thoughtful threads like this. A lot of good stuff to think about.

Yes, I was forced to take technical writing in university . But I bet your explanation is more entertaining to read than mine.

You can type while making dinner?!?! Mad skills.

Thank you, Sean. I appreciate the kind words and your willingness to engage in the conversation. I'll bet those speakers sound super. Enjoy!

No problem, Tom. Thanks for the stimulating questions.

And, yes, my computer is right next to the stove. . .

Okay, not really.

Sean, this was a very good review of the Loreleis. I enjoyed reading it.

Thanks, Tex!

Unfortunately, I have never heard of Loreleis.... but those were absolutely stunning in apperance. Nice review as well...