Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Bang for the Buck

I just recently purchased M22's and VP100 for a surround sound system I am setting up. I currently have an Onkyo dolby digital 5.1 receiver(TX-DS777), and subwoofer(Velodyne CHT-8). In my new quest for higer fidelity I was wondering what one purchase would get me the most "bang for my buck" I was thinking maybe a stereo amplifier to drive the m22's I want to work on incremental upgrades with the end result having a system based on seperates and getting rid of the receiver.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

You already got the biggest bang for your buck items purchased. From here on in, it's baby steps to higher fidelity. There will be improvements, but nothing to the degree that you'll get from your new speakers and sub.

That being said, I'd say your next step would be a new receiver, or amp if you're going to go the separates route.

Good luck and enjoy!

If you listen to a lot of music, a dedicated CD player would be a big upgrade from a standard DVD player; I dont' know what you have. The other thing would be the amplifier in your receiver; these are the things typically compromised the most in integrated units.

My $450 HK 3470 stereo receiver (100Wpc), which I got new for $300, has more power than all other Harman Kardon surround amps, except for the top-of-the-line, $2000 unit, I believe. It also has pre-out/main in jacks so I can use it as a dedicated amp for front channels, when I get a surround receiver.

I just saw an Onkyo 100Wpc dedicated amp on Circuit City's website for $300, and Harman Kardon has some 4-channel amps. The main difference would be the dynamic range of the amp. If you're happy with your DS777 in terms of performance at high volumes, then don't worry about it.

-Cooper

Thanks for the info, I currently have a 5 cd changer from Onkyo I am not sure of the specs because I never used to pay attention to that before now, and I am almost positive it is just a run of the mill type player. I have done some searching on the various forums and from what I can tell it seems the higher quality cd players do make a difference. Now with the advent of multi purpose players that do dvd/sacd/dvd-a and most of the recordable formats would I be giving up something by purchasing that over a dedicated cd player.

Thanks again,

HSU sub will do light years more than any ampification changes. That Cd changer is good. If you are a sensory anomolie maybe a change there would make difference. Otherwise go for m60's. Beyond that probably ego and fantasy.

Hopefully I'm not opening another do the components matter debate, but why do you say a dedicated CD player will perform better then music than a DVD? I would expect both to handle that job equally well.

Chuck,

Did you mean you ordered four M22's? At this time, one of the best bangs for the buck for you may well be upgrading the VP100 to the VP150 or another M22 (if you can place it as a vertical center speaker).

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Hopefully I'm not opening another do the components matter debate, but why do you say a dedicated CD player will perform better then music than a DVD? I would expect both to handle that job equally well.

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Right. Especially if you connect the player digitally to the receiver or prepro so that you use the DAC on the receiver/prepro (which is the way most people choose anyway), the sound should be IDENTICAL, period, unless the player is overtly defective.

Oh, and with regard to the quality of DACs/ACDs, I currently have my Pioneer DVL-919 DVD/LD/CD player hooked up via both digital and analog connections to the Elite 45TX receiver, so that I can instantaneously A/B switch between the digital and analog routs. And I CANNOT hear a difference. To me, this is a fairly significant finding, because when the analog connection is chosen, the signal undergoes the conversion three times -- the DAC on the player, the ADC on the receiver (for the digital bass-management and other processing), and then the final DAC on the receiver. Again, I didn’t do this as a blind test -- I knew that all these conversions were carried out via the analog rout, and accordingly looked for the slightest sign of degradation of sound quality or imaging/staging. My Hales speakers are no slouch, either; they are very revealing and the resolution is no less than, say, that of the Axioms. I have to conclude that, at least to my ears, the DACs/ADCs on my “mass-market” player and receiver are as good as I ever need. This completely discourages me to seek for the possible upgrade of the player.

I was under the impression that you were keeping the sub you had. If that's not the case, then Hsu, Hsu, Hsu!!!

The BIGGEST bang for the buck improvement in my system came from my Hsu VTF-2. Sorry Axiom...even more so than the M60's.

Thanks for the great info, to be a little clearer I haven't purchased anything for rears yet. This all started with the velodyne, I purchased it on a whim because it was a good deal and to my ears it sounded great. Then I realized my front speakers were junk after listening to different models at CC. Did some searching and landed here. The reason I chose m22's and the vp 100 is because the room I am using is only 12x10. So maybe I need to upgrade my room I can always get the m60's later when I do upgrade the room and use the m22's for the rear and spring for the vp150 at the same time. I currently have my Onkyo DVD player (DVS-525) hooked up through the digital coax connection on the receiver. So maybe I'll see about taking back the velodyne and getting the HSU.

Thanks again

In a room that size the VTF-2 would be perfect. Hsu is also coming out with some new models...you may want to think about the new STF-8 or STF-10.

spiff, you keep teasing us about those new Hsu models, but I don't see anything on their site. What can you tell us or where can I get more info?

Tom, click here!

Thanks very much, Sushi. Exciting stuff!

Just ordered the HSU and from what I cam tell it will make a great addition to the m22's, like I said this all started on a whim so I am lucky I am still in the return window for the velodyne. I should have done the diligence up front instead of assuming the guy at the store knew what he was talking about. The Velodyne sounds good but I am sure the HSU will sound much better.

Thanks Again,

Please excuse my ignorance but for someone who would probably just set up a sub and leave it is the STF a better alternative?
Is the VTF for those who like to tweak a lot or is it a really valuable feature?

Personally I'm a minor tweaker, and I rarely touch my VTF. If the STF models were available when I made my purchase, I would have gotten the STF-10 or 12.

Chuch,

Way to go! Which Hsu did you order?

VTF-2 and I can't wait!!

Chuck,

Great choice! I have had my VTF-2 for a month now and it kicks butt with home theater as well as 2 channel listening.

Mark

I think most people set the VTF in extension mode and forget about it. That being said, I don't know that there is much in the way of comparison out there yet between the STF and VTF. Is the STF going to be a comparable sub to the VTF-2, or will the sound be not quite as good? Time will tell on that one I guess.

I was able to hear a prototype of an STF at CES 2003 in January. I asked Dr. Hsu (yup -- he was there in person) what the difference was between that sub and the VTF-2. He said the STF was not tuneable, but the VTF was. Other than that, he told me there wasn't a real difference. (This is referring to the STF model that uses the same woofer size as the VTF-2.)

Just set the HSU up and from the initial listenings everything sounds great just to need the wife to go shopping or something if you know what I mean.

Now does it make any sense or is there an added benefit to purchasing a separate amplifier for my front speakers. Onkyo has an amplifier M-282 which I am assuming matches or at least closely matches the current amplifiers in the receiver. So I shut off the A speakers from the receiver and leave it to power the center, the rears and the sub. Or will I only get an improvement if I purchase a "nicer" amplifier.

I picked up 3 Onkyo M282s and use a Sony STRDB1070 as a front end on my office HT system. System is much 'punchier,' handles demanding music and HT much better than when I used only the Sony.

Below are the specs for the Rotel RB-1050 will this amp be sufficient to power my m22TI's it is only rated at 70w x 2 but my listening area does not allow for extreme volume

Thanks again,

Model RB-1050
Continuous Power Output
Power Configurations
Watts/Channel
all channels driven, 70w x 2
unbridged, 8 ohm load,
20 to 20k Hz, 0.06% THD
70w x 2
Total Harmonic Distortion
(20 Hz - 20 kHz)
cont. rated power 0.03%, maximum
one-half rated power 0.03%, maximum
one watt per channel 0.03%, maximum

Input Overload Level 1.0V / 33 kOhms
Frequency Response

Signal to Noise Ratio (IHF A) 116 dB

Chuck,

I've got a 4 year-old Onkyo 70 wpc receiver that drives my M22ti's cleanly and clearly with plenty of room to spare.

You've got nothing to worry about with that Rotel.

Chuck, the Rotel is conservatively rated and would have plenty of power for your M22s, but so does your THX certified 777. The separate amp is highly unlikely to make a significant improvement; save your money. Although the power is fine, the features on the 777 are getting a bit dated(e.g. no DPLII, etc.) and if you want to get something, a new receiver with up to date features would be one way to make a better use of the money.

Thanks Johnk for the suggestion. I never actually considered upgrading the whole receiver but since it is a couple years old it might be worth looking into. Which receiver(Brand) should I consider for all the latest features. I am picking up the Rotel locally Tuesday so I will audition it and if it doesn't make any improvements I might just upgrade the whole receiver.

Thanks,

Chuck, I wasn't really recommending that you get a new receiver, but rather that it might be a better use of your money instead of getting a two-channel amp that essentially would only partially duplicate what your 777 already does well. A new receiver coming out in about two weeks with a bunch of new features, including automatic speaker calibration and equalization, is the Yamaha 1400.

Has anybody had any experiance with the Rotel RSX-1055, I am considering that over just buying an amp for the front speakers. Do you know what the price point will be for the new Yamaha, I am on a 1000-1500 budget for the receiver/amps whichever route I go.

Thanks,

If you are looking at the 1055, look at what I just saw at audiogon...
http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?ampsmult&1066654829&class&3&4&

I concur on the audiogon idea. If you're looking to find a nice Rotel, find a "nearly new" one on Audiogon and either save a ton on a 1055, or get the 1065. I've bought all my Rotel gear on audiogon, and it's all be excellent!

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... and it's all be excellent!

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I'm not being a grammar nazi -- that just made me laugh.

Thanks again for everybody's input, I am picking up my Rotel RSX-1055 tomorrow. I decided that getting the most current format for watching movies was more important than a seperate amplifier for my front speakers. And when I go bigger with the fronts the Rotel will allow me the option to drive the surround speakers and then add a separate Amp for the front. And what else can you say about the sound that hasn't already been said. Anybody interested in purchasing a used Onkyo TX-DS777 in great condition.

err...that was supposed to be "it's all been excellent."