Bad advice on toe-in...good advice on brightness?
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Joined: Jan 2007
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OP
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For many months now I've been preaching about toe-in and severe toe-in at that on front speakers. After some significant R&D , I've discovered that toe-in is not all that's cracked up to be. Last week when I came back from the Axiom/Paradigm showdown I decided to position my 80s without any toe-in. A few hours later, I sat down for a listening session and was absolutely amazed at what I heard. The 80s sounded more airy, actually completely disappeared on the majority of the CDs that I was listening to and the spatial cues just blew my mind. The highs also became more silky without losing clarity. I thought back to last March when I decided on the severe toe-in and I believe what fooled me was the quality of the highs. They sound bright, clear and crisp with the severe toe-in (and louder) so I think that convinced me to leave them toed-in. So at least for my room acoustics, Alan is correct that you should not toe in or at least toe in minimally.
House of the Rising Sone Out in the mid or far field Dedicated mid-woofers are over-rated
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Re: Bad advice on toe-in...good advice on brightness?
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Joined: Jan 2004
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shareholder in the making
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There are just so many variables, in my opinion, regarding this subject. One important factor is how close your speakers are to the left/right walls. I have found that toeing the speakers in somewhat really helps in this situation, otherwise, the reflections skew the experience. Another thing I've noticed is that with some degree of toe in, it really helps for those listeners that are off center and sitting in the left/right chairs. If you have the right speaker aime right at the right chair, the singer is not going to be center positioned as if coming from the center speaker. The other night I had a few friends over and we were listening to various music. I was sitting in the right seat in the front row. I was amazed at how good the soundstage was being off center. The singer still seemed to be coming from the center position, and the various instruments panned from left speaker to right as expected. Most articles I've read say you should have some degree of toe in, but not Mojo Toe In.
M80s VP180 4xM22ow 4xM3ic EP600 2xEP350 AnthemAVM60 Outlaw7700 EmoA500 Epson5040UB FluanceRT85
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Re: Bad advice on toe-in...good advice on brightness?
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Joined: Jan 2007
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Yeah, you're right Randy. I also have to keep telling everyone that when I evaluate this kind of stuff, I do so from my sweet spot. No one else in my family really cares about sound the way I do so the only one that really counts is...ME .
House of the Rising Sone Out in the mid or far field Dedicated mid-woofers are over-rated
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Re: Bad advice on toe-in...good advice on brightness?
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 13,840 Likes: 13
shareholder in the making
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shareholder in the making
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funny. My 80's are about 12ft apart, so if I had my left 80 aimed straight and was sitting clear over in the right chair in front of the right 80, I just don't get the same experience as if I have them toed in a bit. Now if I toe them in to much, the right 80 would be aimed to far to the left of the person in the right chair and the stage would collapse. I may experiment a little more, as this is always fun. Right now I think I have them Mojo toed in to much.
M80s VP180 4xM22ow 4xM3ic EP600 2xEP350 AnthemAVM60 Outlaw7700 EmoA500 Epson5040UB FluanceRT85
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Re: Bad advice on toe-in...good advice on brightness?
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,569
connoisseur
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connoisseur
Joined: Dec 2006
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One important factor is how close your speakers are to the left/right walls. I have found that toeing the speakers in somewhat really helps in this situation, otherwise, the reflections skew the experience
I notice this allot in my room. The right main is only 4 feet from the wall vs 12 feet for the left main. For movies it’s not an issue so I have them pointing straight out for the widest front soundstage but for music or when using a phantom center I need to toe them in a little.
3M80 2M22 6QS8 2M2 1EP500 Sony BDP-S590 Panny-7000 Onkyo-3007 Carada-134 Xbox Buttkicker AS-EQ1
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Re: Bad advice on toe-in...good advice on brightness?
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Joined: Jul 2006
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Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club shareholder in the making
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Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club shareholder in the making
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Okay, now do toe-out. Hokey pokey us.
Last edited by CV; 10/24/07 04:32 AM.
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Re: Bad advice on toe-in...good advice on brightness?
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,301
connoisseur
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connoisseur
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My 80's are about 12ft apart, so if I had my left 80 aimed straight and was sitting clear over in the right chair in front of the right 80, I just don't get the same experience as if I have them toed in a bit. That's another important factor, seperation distance, my mains are only seperated by 8ft so I have virtually no toe in, which sounds best in my room.
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.
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Re: Bad advice on toe-in...good advice on brightness?
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 6,833
axiomite
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axiomite
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I was always suspicious of the degree of toe in you were using. I use a slight amount myself with great results. I was going to use the "Mojo toe in" but Randy beat me to it
Rick
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud
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Re: Bad advice on toe-in...good advice on brightness?
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Joined: Jan 2007
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Yes Rick I do remember some of your comments. I suppose there's always a right time and a right place for people to come to their own conclusions. It's too bad it took me so long.
House of the Rising Sone Out in the mid or far field Dedicated mid-woofers are over-rated
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Re: Bad advice on toe-in...good advice on brightness?
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Joined: May 2003
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shareholder in the making
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I think I need to play with the toe in on my M80s at some point. When The Boy isn't sleeping and I actually have some down time. Aaaaaaahahahaha.
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