Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Toshiba A30 and A35 HD player...differences?

I am going to pick one up tomorrow....whats the difference between these two? All I can tell from there site is the A35 has 5.1 analog outs. Thats just for the lossless audio right? If I also pick up a onkyo 705 can I save a 100 bucks and get the A30 and send it to the reciever throiugh HDMI nad let it decode? They both upconvert SD the same?

My understanding is that the main difference is the A-35 will pass through High Bit Rate Audio via HDMI so mthat the receiver can decode the audio. The A-30 decodes the sound and passes it as PCM. From what I read, the up conversion is the same.

Edit: I checked Toshiba's site and I am wrong about the A-30 not being able to pass the high bit rate audio. So apparently the only difference is the 5.1 analoge output.

The A30 does NOT pass high def audio bitstreamed (I own one). It has the physical capabilities, but I have not heard that players were yet allowed to do that.

The A35 and the recently released Panasonic BD30 are the ONLY two players that recognize and output DTS-HD-Master in bitstream format. Many other players, including the A30 output DDTrueHD and the rest of the formats.

You will need an audio processor with HDMI 1.3 and a decoder that will unpack the bitstream formats if that is the route you want to go. I'm pretty sure the 705 will do this.

To whether the A35 internally decodes all the formats is a question I can't answer because I do not have any HD disks with DTS-HD:M and I do not think there are any either…... The BD30 is targeting owners of HDMI 1.3 audio processors.

Interesting to know.

mdrew,

While the Toshiba HD-A35 apparently has the capability to pass DTS High Resolution Audio and DTS- Master Audio (along with DD+ and Dolby True HD) as undecoded bitstream through HDMI 1.3, fine print says "core only" for these latter two DTS formats. Since you have the A-35, could you please confirm if the player can pass the entire expanded codec or only the core DTS by bitstream through HDMI 1.3? Thanks.

John

I would if I had an HD disk that had DTS-HD:M. Do you know of any that I could order?

I'll also have to wait a few days to try bitstream as I am still using an HDMI 1.2 AVR. My 3808 has not been shipped yet.

I can tell you that the A35 does a wonderful job outputting DD+ and DDTrueHD as unpacked PCM. It even upsamples to 96 hZ.

You might get DTS-HD:M on Blue-Ray, but since all HD-DVD players must support DolbyTrue-HD at its max rating (24/192), I doubt you will see a lot of DTS on HD-DVD disks anytime soon or ever. You have more chance just waiting for the producers to allow players to outout DDTrueHD as bitstream.

I believe all of the music HD DVDs by Alexander Golberg Jero have DTS-HD Master Audio tracks. I could be wrong.

So I should get the 35 then? I just dont want to shell out the extra 100 if I dont need it with the 705. Future plan is to add a emotiva amp to the onkyo for a pre-pro. I just want the reciever to do the audio decoding so it can use its bass managment and all.

You are right (I just checked). Not having those soundtracks decoded by my A30 will not make me loose any sleep.

The bass management on you receiver should work with 5.1/7.1 multichannel PCM. It is the analog inputs it cannot process. At least, the Onkyo 805 does it without any problems (inclusing using Pro Logic and any other DSPs on the high-def audio if required).

Me, either, about the losing sleep. After all, it's not Regina. (Sorry, Sean)

Doh!

There are a few HD DVD's with DTS Master audio, Terminator 2 is one (French import) it has the DTS Master audio, there are a few here ebay but they aren't cheap.

This toshiba site shows that the A-30 pass high bit rate audio so maybe it will be software upgrade.

<http://www.tacp.toshiba.com/hddvd/>

Yes, they pass it as decoded PCM, not as a bitstream to be decoded by the receiver.

I dont think it really matters in the whole scheme of things. Think about it-

your hd-dvd player decodes then sends to receiver then to speakers.

or

your hd-dvd player sends to receiver, recevier decodes, then sent to speakers.

what is the advantage of one over the other? I say absolutely none. So things get decoded at the player and sent 3 feet away via hdmi... I would bet money there is no audible difference in sound quality

I think if the player decodes it...it baypasses the bass managment on the reciever...am I wrong?

You are correct that it doesn't matter where the decoding happens in a digital chain. I think the issue people are talking about is how the DTS isn't being decoded appropriately by players, so it would need to be passed onto the receiver or processor in bitstream in order to be in its state of highest fidelity. In an ideal world, all of this would have been worked out before the formats launched, but I guess this is just proof we're awake.

I think what EFalardeau said about that a littler earlier is accurate.

If the player decodes the audio it is limited to 5.1. By sending it high bit rate audio via HDMI. the reciever can decode the HD audio to its native 7.1.

No players can decode all 7.1 channels yet? I haven't really kept up on that. Also, what discs actually have more than 5.1 at this point? I haven't seen any in all of the HD discs I've bought.

I checked all my HD-DVD and BD discs and they are all in 5.1 but Dolby TruHD and DTSHD support 8 channels. It is my understanding that we will soon see HD discs with this feature now that the receivers able to decode the audio are readily available.

I sure hope so, as I still plan on getting the two rear surround speakers when budget allows (and when I move my system into a room where I can actually use them).

I remember when Dolby was first showing off Dolby Digital Plus that they were bragging about having up to 14.1 channels. I imagine this was nixed before getting to HD DVD and Blu-ray because of the space requirements as well as the fact that such a small small percentage of people would actually invest the money in a home theater of that magnitude. How many discrete channels do commercial movie theaters get to play with? Are they taking advantage of more channels, or is it gone from the specs completely?

Movie theaters are usually 5.1, sometimes 6.1.

There are a couple HD-DVD's with 6.1, but the first to have 7.1 will be Pan's Labyrinth which will be released in a couple months.

I've been playing with my HD-A35 and Denon AVR-3808 and have found that by letting the superior audio decoders in the receiver do the work, the sound is WAAAAY better. Think about it... $499.00 HD-DVD player vs $1599.00 receiver. What one would you think would do a better job decoding HD audio? But that's just my experience.

That's good to know about the decoding.

I'll have to pick up an HD player just to listen to my rears.

This argument over where it is preferable to have the decoding done (source or audio processor) gets beat to death at AVS all the time. I’ve seen enough points from both sides to continue sitting with my but firmly planted on the fence. There is some evidence to support the processor group’s position, but I’m not sure if a human being could actually hear the difference, and that is in regards to PCM being sent over HDMI. It appears that it may be prone to jitter, but who knows if anyone could detect that??? At any rate, I don’t think anyone can make the claim that one way of decoding or the other is definitely better than the other.

I’m also not so sure about being limited to 5.1 PCM output from DTS-M or DD TruHD if decoded at the source. I have not seen anything concrete in that regards. Where is this sighted at a known fact?? I’d like to read that.

Regardless of all this conjecture, I believe that if someone either has, or plans to buy a HDMI 1.3 audio processor, they would be doing themselves an injustice by purchasing a source that will not output all the formats as bitstream. I am seeing a trend with the new HD and BR players to intentionally omit one format or the other, or both from internal decoding. I am also seeing a trend with BR and HD disks to include DTS-HD:M and / or DD TreHD, but not include a LPCM track. I think it is only a matter of time before the only format on the disks are DTS-HD:M and / or DD TruHD. It is for that reason that I bought the A35 and will most likely buy this new Panasonic BD30. They both output all the formats as bitstream.

Just as a sidenote, I really like the word "bitstream."

But is it really a "word"?? And if so, how is it supposed to be spelled? LOL

Some subtle points that may help clarify or muddy things up:

*You can apply bass management and DSP processing to multichannel PCM over HDMI if your receiver/processor allows this processing. This is the preferred way for bm/processing since the signal remains in the digital domain.

*It actually does seem to matter for DTS-HD High Resoulution Audio and DTS-HD Master Audio where the decoding takes place. Firstly, none of the HD-DVD players from Toshiba can decode the full DTS-HD High Res or DTS-HD Master Audio; they can only decode the embedded "core" DTS bitstream . By sending undecoded bitstream to a processor/receiver that can then decode the full codec, you can enjoy the full capacity of DTS-High Res and DTS-Master Audio. In this regard, as the only bitstream-capable player, the HD-A35 would be superior. For DD+ and Dolby True HD, it shouldn't matter whether the player or the processor/receiver is doing the decoding since the full codec is utlized (sent as bitstream or decoded into PCM). By the way, for DTS-HD Master Audio, one needs HDMI 1.3 on either end for bitstream capability, whereas lower HDMI suffices for bitstream of other codecs. An interesting twist is that the discs may have extraneous video/PIP, audio, or text overlays that the players (? second decoder) can decode and mix with the main PCM , but it is not clear if this extra information can be sent as bitstream and decoded separately in the processor/receiver. In addition, players can only decode 5.1 channels so far. If we get 6.1 and 7.1 channels on the disc, using bitstream may be necessary to enjoy all the channels unless a firmware update to the players allows decoding of more than 5.1 channels into PCM.

John

Well it is not conjecture, in Toshiba's literature for their players it clearly states: "HDMI Audio support for 5.1 L-PCM". As to where the the decoding should be done really depends on the quality of the DACs and features of the receiver. For my receiver, when I use the THX feature, there is a noticable difference(improvement) when the receiver does the decoding.

Well I am definetly going to get the 35....went to BB last night to get one while raking up some reward zone points for this sale they were having...they dont carry the 35 in the store. Matter of fact they didnt even know about the 35. So I am going to go to amazon.com I htink...pick up the onkyo 705 as well maybe.

I remember reading that the A35 only decodes up to 5.1 from hi-rez DD, but I can’t recall if it was an official document, or just someone posting that, so thanks for sharing. I’d still like to find a 6 or 7 channel HD disk to find out for myself though. I don’t know of any out yet.

I’m wondering if what you find “better” isn’t in relation to THX post processing, or if you actually prefer the AVR over the player. If you do feel that in-receiver unpacking is better than in-player unpacking, then good for you and it really doesn’t matter what anyone else thinks or says – it’s your opinion. I on the other hand, refuse to take a stand one way or the other without being convinced by means of a blind listening session.

Mike the HD-DVD disc Face-Off is formatted in 6.1 DTS ES ... which would only play 5.1 DTS on our A2/HK635 combo.

Face Off

Very good movie BTW, if you haven't already seen it.