Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo M80/Nuance/Sansui/Bose...& another Frankenspeaker

Yet another speaker show-down at Mojo's place today. This time it was a tag-team match of the 1980 survivors against the Y2K neophytes. In the corner to my left,representing team US and weighing in at a total combined weight of 63 pounds, the Sansui S-1917Cs and the Bose 601s! In the corner to my right, representing team Canada and weighing in at a total combined weight of 87 pounds, the Nuance Magic 1s and the Axiom M80s!

Now let's look at the pre-bout sensitivities measured with -10dB in-phase pink noise from 8 feet away. This represented about a tenth of a watt out of my Denon:

M80: 68.5dBC
Nuance Magic 1: 65dBC
Sansui S-1917C: 69.5dBC
Bose 601 series II: 62.5dBC

The sealed Sansuis have a 12" polypropolyne bass driver (which contributed to their higher sensitivity), a 4" paper mid and a 2.5" paper tweet. The Boses have an 8" paper bass, 8" paper mid and 4 X 2.5" paper tweets arranged in a "free space array" that also features an upward-firing port. The Nuances have a 7" bass that appears to be treated paper and a 1" silk dome tweet. The Nuances are about the size of M22s and are rear-ported.

I was the note-taking referee manning the switches and dials and my somewhat blind buddy was the judge. I manually equalized the SPL of all speakers. What follows are the judge's descriptions. He had no clue what he was listening to...I added the names of the speakers. My EP600 was off. All notes are shown in the order that speakers were played.

Round 1 - Diana Krall:Love Scenes: Track 2, Peel me a grape

Boses: lacking somehow. They lack high end detail. The whole frequency range is moved down and up somehow. Not centered...phasey. I interpret his third comment to mean no highs and no lows.

Sansuis: good centre image. Mids to highs better than Bose. I like these better than Bose.

Nuances: very detailed. Centre image is tightened tremendously compared to the Sansuis. Lows sound nice. Crisper, brighter and not as mellow as Bose or Sansui.

80s: Wow, the centre image is really tight now. She sounds really crisp and I can hear the raspiness in her voice. I like these.

The Boses and Sansuis sound different from the others. They're not as focused and detailed.

Round 2 - Diana Krall:Love Scenes: Track 11, My Love Is

For this round, I disqualified the Bose and Sansui with extreme prejudice . At this point, he still didn't know what he was listening to.

Nuance: I asked where he hears the bass. He said he wasn't sure.

80s: I hear the bass behind her and slightly to the left. So I asked how far behind. About 5 feet or so.

Nuance: I still can't localize the bass.

They're both pleasant to listen to and similar. The Nuances are not as warm but they sound more detailed. I suppose it's a matter of preference but I'd take the 80s.

Round 3: Echoes of Incas: Ventana Al So: Track 7, Ventana Al Sol

M80s: I'm getting birds around me, in front of me, behind me. There's one above me now. This is amazing (laughing). Do you have the surrounds on?

Nuances: the guitar is over-whelming the birds. With the 80s, the birds were there and balanced with the guitar. With these, I have to search for the birds. With the 80s, the birds were right there and there and there. The 80s are more crisp and forward. The 80s somehow sound better but the Nuances don't sound bad...just thinner...more recessed.

Round 4: Eric Clapton: Unplugged: Track 4, Tears in Heaven

M80s: Wow, right now I can place all the instruments. Is the sub on by the way?

Nuances: These lack body. They have detail but no body or warmth. I can still place the instruments but...I'm struggling. What happened to the bass?

I want to hear the 80s. They're more involving.

After we finished with the formal listening, I turned the 600 on and tweaked it to what we felt was optimum bass for use with the Nuances. No matter what we did, we couldn't substitute for the body and warmth of the 80s. We both agreed the bass from the 600 was very well blended. He wondered how he can get that blend with his sub.

I find his comment about the two US speakers sounding different than the Canucks very interesting. I wonder if this has to do with the voicing and design philosophy differences of the old vs. new generation.

We also returned to the Sansui and Bose in an attempt to give them more body. We found that by turning down the treble and increasing the bass, the Sansuis shaped up. I had to peg the bass and treble to maximum to get the Boses to sound somewhat balanced. But both of these old warriors had no chance against the new generation.

I was very surprised with the high sound quality of the Nuances. They were very articulate, detailed and airy but lacked the bass and warmth of the 80s. In my opinion they were head and shoulders above the M3s and M22s. The build quality was rock solid. However, they also cost him a grand!

In Mojo tradition, we decided to invert the Nuances on top of the 80s. The 80s are of course terrific, the Nuances are great and with the two Canucks, the sum was greater than each whole. It sounded absolutely stunning.

Finally we concluded by playing Clapton on all speakers (about 1.5 Ohms) at the same time with the Denon at -10. This represents about 18W/channel on my 80s so it's very loud. We listened to a whole song without issue. The sound was definitely full but not what I would call refined or articulate. Imaging was totally out the window. I was hoping my Denon would lay itself to rest but alas it survived. I guess no upgrade for me yet.

There you have it. Another great Sunday and yet another feather in the M80 architect's cap. My daughter made off with the camera but my buddy promised to take some pictures of the Sansuis and Nuances. I'll post them when I receive them.

Nice read. I like how you keep playing God.

You mean the Frankenspeakers? I'm not sure if that's playing God or the devil ? Maybe they're one and the same.

Ha ha. Keep trying, though. I'm sure you'll find the perfect combination with just a little more abomination.

M80s rules!

You mentioned that the Nuances are way better than the M3s and the M22s but cost a grand.

So are the Nuances worth the $700 difference to upgrade from the $320 M3s?

I knew someone would ask that question .

So here is the easy answer. If you are planning on paying a grand for speakers, why even consider the Nuances? Go straight to 80s.

Let's say for argument's sake you don't have the space for 80s because the wall that you want to set them against has a built-in entertainment unit so you are relegated to bookshelf speakers. In that case, I'd say a $1000 speaker is a waste of money because you'll end up butchering its sonic attributes by stifling it in a cabinet. So you may as well purchase something less expensive.

If I had the space for floor-standers but I had to make a life-long decision between the Nuances and the M3s or M22s only due to WAF say, I would take the Nuances without any hesitation whatsoever. An extra $700 amortized over my lifetime is a small price to pay for greatly improved sonic performance.

Does that answer your question?

It is indeed an incredible speaker system and we both should give thanks that we are so fortunate to soak in its sonic radiance, Eric.

I do it everyday! I just finished a near-religious experience with them! Stravinsky's "Noces" on SACD is an explosion of clarity and presence on these babies!

.

Mojo: I did not find a single photo of the Nuance Magic 1's anywhere. Why aren't there any photos on the site? I'm assuming that you reviewed a floorstander but could you please also upload a photo or point me to a link of the same?

Many thanks in advance

Shankar,

I didn't find a picture either. These speakers were purchased four years ago. Nuance doesn't appear to have much of a site as you've found out. As I mentioned in my write-up, they are about the size of M22s.

I'm waiting for photos from my buddy. As I said in my write-up, my daughter took my camera and I couldn't take any pics.

Sorry for the skip. I didn't realize that the nuances were the size of the M22s.

And yes, if the Nuances sound similar to the M80s being the size of the M22s, then that's quite an achievement and worth the one grand.

Another speaker combination and I wasn't invited, I am hurt in so many ways!

Well not really, I was out of town any way. I would have liked to have heard the Nuances and brought the M22s for direct comparison. A few tweaks on the bass settings does alot to warm up the M22s.

This came together very quickly on Sunday morning. I did think about you though . Good point on the tone controls for the 22. They did wonders for the Bose and the Sansui. We have to get the Nuances and 22s together for a showdown.

The photos have finally arrived. Enjoy!

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Ok, I'm just going to have to get my 80's Pioneer CS60 4-ways out of storage and compare them to my 80's now.

Let us know how they sound.

They are like brand new, and back in the day they sounded awesome. If memory serves me correctly, they have some 12-15" turbo woofers.

I could not find a picture of mine on Google, but these 903's are close.

Anything with "turbo" in it is bound to be extra special.


Tonight, I didn't have just a sandwich for dinner. I had a turbo sandwich. It was good.

Really good.

Those look so cool. Way cooler than the Bose 601s. You have to pull them out Randy and do the comparison or I'll never rest .

I had the Pioneer HPM 1500s back in the day, 1978 or so.

I was born in 1978, but I wasn't a pioneer.

Hey Rick, what's the patio lantern doing on top of those speakers ?

But seriously, do you still have them kicking around somewhere and if so, how do they sound?

Good lord, they got crazy with the drivers then, didn't they? I had a pair of Fishers with 10" drivers when I was in high school, but the top end was so bad that I ran them with other crappy speakers that had bad bass and mids. It sounded pretty good... until I heard good speakers.

I think I might still have a pair of Fishers in the basement just 2 way with a 10".

The top was a super tweeter; the speaker was a two piece design. The top and bottom were separate units; the top plugged into the bottom with a set of quick connects. I no longer have them.

From what I've seen, Bose was really popular back then because they were the first american speaker manufacturer to discover mid-range.

My fav A/B test trio:

Nice.

I am always amazed at how small Axioms drivers look when compared to the competition.

I would love to hear those big Tannoys. I had the pleasure of listening to a set some time back, they were a wonderful sounding speaker.

Chess, I think you need to upgrade your M60s to a VaSSallo finish, just to match the other two.

Ya ya ya.
I'm glossing over the idea, pardon the pun on gloss.

What make is the one with the two drivers?

Tannoy D700. Note the concentric mid/tweeter in the top woofer.

I'm sure it sounds wonderful, but the Tannoy is what Howard Stern might refer to as a butterface speaker.

For immigrants like me, you may want to explain what butterface means .

Here you go.. ButterFace

Geeeez...sorry I asked.

Hey now, let's not be rude.
Some of the classic Tannoys have real class!

Here is a link to that thread of the review of those three speakers.

It is intersting that you said in that review you too found the M60s slightly veiled when it comes to vocals, just as I am always saying the M60s are not as forward as the M22s/M80s. The vocals do take a back seat to the rest of the music, unlike the M22s and M80s.

Thanks for digging up that link.

Except that i disagree with that opinion when comparing the M22s and M60s, something i did a long time ago. The M60s to me sounded like the "big brother" to the M22. I did not find the upper end to be dissimilar at all. The midrange and bass differences were a dead giveaway though. Another A/B test could be in the future if someone locally has the M22s or M80s and wants to cart them over here for trials.

When comparing the M60s and a few other speaker brands, especially for the first time against the Tannoys, i was VERY shocked at picking out the 'more articulate' or perhaps even more 'bright' speaker as being the Tannoy and not the M60.


I used to write alot awhile back. Too much perhaps.

I find the upper end on the 22 to be much brighter than on the 60 but that could be because the midrange and bass is more depressed on the 22 than the 60. Perhaps this thinness is causing me to perceive the 22s as brighter.

That is possible mojo, but they've also tweaked some sound since my tests years ago.
They may have bumped and smoothed some things in v2 for both models since 2002.
As i said, if someone local gets M22s or M80s and wants to lug them over, i'll put them side by side in a blind A/B for kicks. The last time i did an Axiom vs. Axiom test was with the M40s and M60s.
Didn't need a blindfold for that one; they were so easily distinguishable.

eech, sorry about the big pic sizes. You can see the snot hairs on the underside of a tick in the carpet, i know.

I uploaded all the original large res shots instead of my internet sized versions. I've been a bit lazy in re-uploading them all again.

I'll work on it.

Is that an M40 on the left? Is its bass driver bigger than the 60 or is that an optical illusion?

Where's "local"?

Optical illusion. Note that the 40 is about a foot (at least) in front of the 60, and I'm guessing it's a relatively wide angle lens.

Yes the M40 is in front of the M60 and you can still see an easy size difference.