Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater HD front projection??

OK...I've got the audio end of my HT finished.

Now comes the video part.

I've got three possible solutions. (Though none of them are on the near horizon)

1) Front Projection
2) LCoS
3) Plasma

#1 - I love the idea of a huge screen. My concern is picture quality. I'll only be sitting about 10-12' from the screen. I'll want to be able to watch HD signals as well.

#2 - This is way I'm leaning personally. The new Toshiba 65" LCoS seems like an AMAZING tv. 1080p! And it's only about 18" deep. Not a monster RPTV.

#3 - Plasma - my bf really wants a plasma. I won't get a tv under 65", so were talking MAJOR bucks for something like that. And I'm still not convinced the PQ is there on plasmas.

Give me some thoughts to ponder.

Thanks

I still think you should do an in home, side by side, comparison, just like you do with your speakers. Stick to the same methodology that has worked for you.

Let me know when I can check it out.

-curtis

Har, har...

The Sanyo Z1 is supposed to be great for HDTV. I have not seen it in action though...dont want to spend $500 on a HDTV decoder.

The Z1 only has a 964 x 544 resolution. That's FAR from HD. It may look nice, but how can that compare with 1920 x 1080?

Front projection - DLP - 80 inches or so should do the trick I think.

You may want to look at the Mitsubishi XD300U. Almost 2000 lumens and 4000 hours lamp life and 2000:1 contrast ratio. I was offered USD 2300 for this a while back. US prices are around USD 2900.

I sit approx. 13-feet from my screen (75-inches diagonal) and it looks fantastic. I have an LCD projector which is too bright (3300 lumens) but using DVD-RP82 progressive scan image and S-RGB mode, the results are wonderful. Also at 12-feet I cannot see the screendoor effect and mine is LCD. DLP projectors perform even better.

Projection screen size / distance calculator for the XD300U

You should be able to get atleast 78-100 inches if the projector is placed around 12-feet from screen. Mitsubishi projectors have S-RGB which is a very nice feature for color matching. The images are really more realistic when the S-RGB mode is turned on. There is a slight drop in brightness but it still looks great.

Plasma : Looks great but prices for larger ones are still prohibitive.

I am not a fan of rear projection sets although I haven't closely observed the latest models. Too grainy when viewed at close distances. Depending on the screen materials used in these, the angle of view can be very limiting at times.

Just my thoughts. Good luck with your decision.

Keep the thoughts coming...

fyi...

1) seating will be nearly directly in front at all times, no off angle viewing.

2) Lighting is not an issue

3) viewing distance is about 10-13'

4) mostly used for DVD with some tv viewing (more tv as HDTV becomes more widespread)

its meant for HD though...at a very reasonable price. it is 1/4 HD so it doesnt distort the image. check www.projectorcentral.com for more info.

Craig, what is your aproximate budget for the video portion (exclusing the player and tuner). I can suggest HD-capable FP's with the best available picture quality for any budget from $1K to $10K.

Incidentally, there are LCOS (D-ILA) front projectors, too.

I honestly don't know what our budget is going to be. Since my bf wants a plasma, that certainly helps.

I gotta say I have both a CRT and DLP front PJ and if you can swing it any sort of way go for the CRT. Sure it has drawbacks - size and not as fancy tech - but the picture is just so much closer to reference.

what's reference and who decided what it is?

Alright - sorry - I opened up the wrong can of worms - I should have said - my opinion is that CRT really gives an excellent picture for FP and I prefer it to my DLP PJ for movies. Understand neither of them are high end equipment and I am not a videophile. Previous statement retracted.

And to add to that - I have been lurking around these forums to try to get tips to optimize my Axiom setup and created an ID when I saw this thread. I feel that people can benefit from the opinion of someone who has spent considerable time with both technologies.

All the best

Chandler

My office is expecting delivery of a 61" NEC plasma screen any day now. (It's actually really late.) It's going to be used as a computer monitor, but you bet we're going to test it out with DVDs. I'll let you know what I think of the PQ.

Oh, I think it cost like $10,000, though.

Welcome aboard, happy. I meant no disrespect by my comment -- just a poke in the ribs.

Here's what's grabbed my eye right now, but like I said, I'm a long way off from a purchase of this size.

Toshiba 65HX83 65" LCoS

Anyone in the LA area with FP that would want to change my mind.

Yes, CRT projectors (especially the ones with bigger 8"-9" guns), once properly calibrated, do produce better pictures than any digital projectors available today. However, the drawbacks are daunting...

(1) They are HUGE and HEAVY. If you ever want to ceiling-mount it, you first need a major structural reinforcement on the ceiling joists themselves. If you table-mount it, it will surely dominate the entire room, sitting right in the middle of the room.

(2) The projected image is several fold dimmer than digital projectors. This means that you need a perfectly light-controlled room, preferably all walls/ceilings painted in dark colors.

(3) Cost of ownership is very high -- CRTs don't last forever, plus the cost for regular calibrations/maintenance (see below).

(4) Last but not least, calibrating a CRT projector is a full-time job by itself. Forget about possibly doing it by yourself, unless you want to get an ISF certificate. And you have to repeat it regularly. Incidentally, un-calibrated or poorly calibrated CRT projector is a disaster in picture quality. Never expect a decent performance out-of-box, whether new or used.

Craig, I don't know what kind of picture quality you demand. But I can essentially guarantee, from my own experience, that a properly set up digital front projector will produce a BETTER image than what you watch in a typical local cinema theater (excluding those rare high-tech theaters where all gears are truly well calibrated and maintained), AS LONG AS you have a decent light control.

If you agree that the Axiom 5.1 system produces clearer, more accurate sound than what you ever hear in a local cinema theater, you know what I mean...

Talk to me Sushi...point me toward FP bliss. I'd love some links to some great HD FP's.

projectorcentral.com

Craig,

If you want a true 1080x1920 front projector, you have to budget pretty high, and also should wait till December/January. JVC is scheduled then to release their "killer" full-HD unit using D-ILA panels (JVC's own version of the LCOS technology). Currently, the only available full-HD front projector is the Sony Q004, based on Sony's own LCOS-like technology called SXRD, and it costs over $20K.

But if you can live with 720x1280 resolution, a whole bunch of LCD, DLP, and D-ILA options available from ~$2K to over $10K. I remember you once called scaling the 1080i image down to 720p resolution as "cheating" -- it is true indeed, but unless one has a very good eyes (not only highly critical viewing skills but also 20/13 or better visual acuity), I bet most people cannot tell them apart.

I haven't yet watched in action the LCOS RPTV you referred. But I would warn you that the picture quality will very unlikely stand against CRT or DLP RPTVs, especially with respect to blacks and shadow details, according to what people seem to say in the AVSforum. Expect it to be similar to LCD RPTVs in image quality, except for higher pixel resolution.

In case you have a generous budget, among the 720p front projectors that you definitely ought to look at are the Sharp Z10000U, Marantz VP-12S2, InFocus 7200/Toshiba MT8U (these are clones), JVC SX21U, and Yamaha DPX-1000.

Obviously I am biased, but what a front projector offers you, in a nutshell, is really the difference between the experience of watching a "cinema" versus a "television" if you know what I mean.

"...but unless one has a very good eyes (not only highly critical viewing skills but also 20/13 or better visual acuity), I bet most people cannot tell them apart."

Unfortunately for me, I have good eyesight and extremely critical viewing skills. It's part of my job. I notice things in movies and DVD's that I just shouldn't be noticing. (I don't mean continuity errors). Slight color/lighting shifts from shot to shot drive me nuts. (It's called color timing guys...get with it!)

One issue I'm going to have with my BF is that he loves really bright, zero contrast looks. He has a flat panel LCD monitor on his computer and has it CRANKED up as bright as it will go. Mine on the other hand is good old fashioned CRT, and looks down right DARK compared to his, and we both swear each others looks horrible.

So he really likes Plasma, not only for its "cool factor" but the fact that it has that similar "hot" video look. I personally think it looks too bright, too edgy/sharp. The bright, vivid colors are nice, but it in NO way looks like film at all.

An example: I was at my bf's parents place watching Zorro on ABC as few weeks back. It was broadcast in HDTV. They have a small plasma tv. The picture was stunningly clear. I've never seen an image like that before - BUT it still looked like HDTV, not film. (and regular broadcast TV looks like complete poop on the plasma. Bleck!

I want my movies to look like film, not video. That is REALLY important to me.

You could just put a really large 4-bladed fan running at 360 rpm in between you and the TV. It's sure to give you that film-like flicker.

Ok, that took waaay to much effort to calculate.

What do you have to say about this...pros and cons. ??

73" Mitsubishi RPTV

I just bought one. Expect to pay an extra $300 to have someone come out and calibrate out the strong red push Mits puts in all their screens. Otherwise, the 9" guns pushing it result in a remarkable image for a screen that size. I don't have the capability of controlling light enough now so it was a good fit for me.

And it's fricking massive:

http://www.msnusers.com/_Secure/0TgCz*4kXTJ7hRhkXqZr0JnAZ4KDc4lsdj!1jLqd3zaoxSJtxYpKN9APa1BqmNgBbbGVyvs1eQyJcpV3qTqleKe9Y0YP1ZmpHfNDF*jG1MtWJFjE7LK7TYA/IMG_0449.jpg?dc=4675435111619442829

9" CRT's seem like a pretty darn good idea to me.

How deep is that monster?

I really need to see a FP setup. I find it hard to believe a FP can compete with three 9" CRTs. Though all you FP owners SWEAR it's the best thing since sliced bread.

Craig, Craig, oh Craig,

Right. Front projectors, or for that matter any digital displays, cannot beat a good, properly calibrated CRT RPTV in blacks and absolute contrast ratio. However, in pretty much ALL other aspects, FP readily beats RPTV in my opinion. I've watched the Mits 73" many times -- in fact, it was one of the top candidates before I discovered the FP. The other day I watched the 73" in my local UE again, and frankly, it brought me a big smile -- I simply felt "superior" that I went with FP.

For me, the biggest drawback of RPTVs is its "dithered" screen and its quite a narrow viewing angle (especially the vertical angle). The screen dither really gives a "video/TV" look to the picture. Viewing angle may not be a big issue for people who pretty much sit still when watching movies, but for slackers like me, who wants to lay down on the sofa or even on the floor while watching, it is highly frustrating to see the brightness variations. Oh, and the 73" box is nearly 3-feet deep; it completely dominates even a generously sized room. The big box won't do too much good to the Axiom sound, either.

In reply to:

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I want my movies to look like film, not video. That is REALLY important to me.

---

This comment pretty much nails it, doesn't it? -- Craig, you do have to go with the FP then. And you really need to see the FP in action, in order to appreciate its unique virtues (and take your BF, too -- he may well change his view). It is the only display method that produces a truly "film-like" image. After all, the IMAX theater is front-projected, right?

That big bad 73 stats out at:
65 3/4 high, 65 3/16 wide and 29 7/8 inches deep..
Weight is given as approx (they aren't even sure) 420 lbs..
I have the 65 inch diamond, and love it.. Beautiful picture, fully HD, verrrrrry easy to use "64" point digital convergence adjustments, etc, etc..
Sure, it's big.. Just arrange your furniture and decore to compliment the thing..
I don't have to buy a new bulb in xxx hours, I don't have to buy a screen for $$$, I have 1080i (and everything in between), blah blah blah, yadda yadda yadda..
I only wish they would make them with room to put the center channel speaker under the screen, inside the cabinet..
Now, having said all that, I have not yet seen a FP set up in operation.. I could be swayed.. Bigger is better with movie watching.. I've got an 11 1/2 wide blank front wall, with vaulted ceiling, and 21 feet of split level seating area.. And, it's dark ! (I can just hear Sushi's gears turning.. hahah)

I'm certainly not ruling out FP. I'm actually VERY interested. I just have never seen it done properly. (ie bars and such) And it's going to be a tough sell. Although Roger is VERY open minded about my HT hobby, unless we can see a properly set up FP system that won't look weird in our living room, I'll have some trouble selling the idea I think.

I didn't realize those 73" Mitsu's were so deep. That's too big. That's one of the selling points of the LCoS to me as well, it's only about 18" deep.

Hmm...anyone know where I can see a FP setup in the LA area? (not a $10,000+ deal either! Something between $3000-$6000 would be better)

Craig,

$6000 will give you an excellent 720p DLP projector today, and the price will only go down in the coming months.

That said, go visit one of those snobby "high-end" HT dealers in your local area. They usually have nicely set up FP demo rooms. After all, you don't have to buy an expensive projector from them (such as the overpriced Runco or Sim2).

In fact, that's exactly what I did: I demo'ed my beloved projector (Yamaha LPX-500; 720p LCD) initially in one of my local high-end shops, who was selling it at near MSRP ($5500). In the end, I picked it up in Tokyo while I was there in a business trip, for ~$2800.

Not that screenshots are everything, but seeing is believing. So, just to demonstrate the level of picture quality I am talking about, here are some photos of screen images thrown by the JVC G1000 D-ILA projector onto three different kinds of screens (white/gray/silver fabrics). Digicam pictures were taken by the AVSforum member "tryg" (he is a screen-fabric guru), and posted without any processing.



You can in fact get a better projector than the one used here for ~$6000.

How about FP vs. some of the new DLP Tv's Sushi? Have you compared? Obviously the FP is the bigger picture, but how do they compare in quality?

Do I dare even ask how much a big silver screen costs? I know even at work, we have a screening room with a white screen, and one with silver. The silver is much better.

Hmmmm....and on first glance I thought the white was the good one out of those 3.

Wow...I just topped the boards for the first time...must be getting my axiom fix before I leave the board for a week.

Panny L300U
http://dustin.bunnyhug.net/current.php
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=274225&highlight=screenshots <-- see attachments

Sanyo PLV Z1
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=2415631&fullpage=1
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=2415638&fullpage=1
http://www.devotionsbyerik.com/HT-Screen%20Shots.htm


Infocus X1
http://www.geocities.com/riverarichard_rrr/My_page.html
http://www.leodler.com/ <-- see screenshots
http://home.mindspring.com/~jhovis/cobble_creek_cinema016.htm <-- just click next..next
http://www.spacelofts.com/x1/ <-- my setup suxs at the moment still learning to calibrate

Panny L200U
http://home.earthlink.net/~peregrinefalcon/driftwood/id6.html


All these projector are under $3000USD...some in the range of $3000-$5000 are fantastic. Sushi has more experience on those.

Silverhawk and Greyhawk screens which a lot of DIY screen makers are trying to achieve are in the range of $1500-$2000 just for the screen.

Zarak,

Well, as you would expect, latest DLP RPTVs and FPs basically exhibit same basic parameters for picture quality (resolution, black level, shadow details, color saturation/accuracy, etc), except that:

(1) Because RPTV has a smaller screen with highly directional gain-tuning (especially vertical) so that the image is brighter and hence better tolerates ambient light. On the other hand, FP typically uses a larger, wide-viewing-angle screen material, which translates to less image brightness and less ambient light tolerance (As I always tell you, a dark room is one single key to the FP).

(2) As I mentioned above, I personally do not like the highly directional, dithered screen of RPTVs -- besides the brightness variations and hot-spotting, the image lose "film-ness." In comparison, FP images look like, well, film.


Craig,

The silver one is the Vutec Silverstar screen with a whopping screen gain of 6.0. It is a hard-board material. It's about $60 per sq. ft. So, a 100"-diagonal screen would be ~$1800. Just in comparison, my pulldown (120"-diagonal, retro-reflective High Power fabric with 2.8 gain) is ~$600.

My own projector is approximately on-par with the one shown above in image quality/performance. Including the projector, screen, and long video cables, the video display portion of my system costed about US$3600. Not cheap, but not outrageous, either.

I see rainbows very badly on RPTV DLP tv's but have never seen them on a FP DLP projector....very odd.

Sushi:

I just read this entire thread about 2 days ago for the first time. I may have to experiment w/ some metallic paint here shortly. Consistency looks like it would be the only problem with a DIY silver screen.

Try this thread. Some people have gotten a nice system going something like 50 silver 40 glaze 10 white something like that

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=267756&perpage=20&pagenumber=1

I tried fabric with little success. I'm opting for a Dalite hipower myself and forget about the troubles.

Yup, Saturn, I can HIGHLY recommend the Da-Lite High Power for anybody who:

(1) plans for a untensioned pulldown. It's a must -- no visible wrinkles.

(2) likes brighter, more vivid, yet still film-like image.

In reply to:

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I see rainbows very badly on RPTV DLP tv's but have never seen them on a FP DLP projector....very odd.

---

Assuming that the RPTV and FP you watched use the same color-wheel speed, the reason may well be as simple as because of the brighter RPTV image. In my own experience, the rainbows tend to get worse with increased image brightness.

Theres no wrinkles in the untentioned version of the hipower?

My cheap ($160 CDN) Matte White Bretford projection screen doesnt do my picture justice.

Waiting for the new place to be setup before I buy the Hi Power permanent screen.

In reply to:

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Theres no wrinkles in the untentioned version of the hipower?

---

Saturn,

First, the High Power fabric uses a very thick base material. That certainly helps it from developing bad wrinkles/waves when used untensioned.

Second, and more importantly, the unique retro-reflectivity of the High Power really makes the minor wrinkles, if any, COMPLETELY invisible in the projected image. Basically, retro-reflectivity dictates that the image brightness (reflectance) is determined solely by the geometrical angle between the projector and your head, and is independent of slight undulations of the screen plain.

Also, retro-refectivity ensures that the image brightness is perfectly uniform across the screen, wherever you are watching it from. Absolutely no hot-spotting, sparklies, nothing. It's almost magical.

[FYI, retro-reflective surfaces throw the projected light right back at the direction of light source, rather than toward the opposite direction like a regular mirror does. Retro-reflective materials are used in traffic signs and road marks, so that the light coming from your car's headlamp is thrown right back toward you.]

Great. That was an easy explanation. That long thread I saw on avsforum about pros and cons on the Hipower and then this scientific explanation of how light bounces of the reflected bead on the surface etc etc...that was a scary thread.

Hi sushi, all,

Fascinating discussion, especially the screen material shots. From an old darkroom film guy, the silver screen image is lousy. All the detail in the pistols and stamens is burned out.

The best balance and detail is the gray, although the white is quite good.

I haven't seen enough of LCos yet to comment, and I don't think I'll make it to CEDIA this year.

CRT is still the reference because it's had 75 years to mature.

All points made are accurate (having a dark room being the key).

Spiff--of course we all want film-like resolution, but it will always be VIDEO, because the gradations of scale in bright to black and color with optical film projections are really quite spectacular compared to video. I was reminded of this seeing "Swimming Pool" the other night. A new print, beautifully projected. It is simply stunning visually. Don't know who the lighting and cinematographer were. I have never seen skin tones like those of the young actress by the pool (exept in real life, ha, ha).

By comparison, even professional DLP cinema has a kind of video luminosity that, while appealing, is quite different from optical film, and in my judgment, not as real. It's still enjoyable, however.

As to 720p and 1080i, yes, the difference is there but it isn't dramatic, and you have to look for it.

So, the goal is to find a front or rear-projection technology that most closely rivals the best film projection.

Regards to all,

Yeah I'll chime in here on the screen...I've had marginal success with the silver/glaze/white DIY screen on blackout cloth. I didn't go out and buy the professional sprayer and such - I just used a fine nap roller onto blackout cloth. The results were nice. There's a couple of spots I went back with the roller before they were dry. That resulted in areas that appear lighter in very bright scenes. I think if I gave it another shot I could get it pretty even and with the improvement it gave me in contrast it was worth the $50 investment. I did a side by side with plain blackout cloth and the difference in dark detail was noticable.