Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater common guru's - receiver suggestions

Well, let's see....the original poster asked for opinions, I supplied my experiences and opinions. I disagree with you and you get on a soapbox about people who have differing opinions. Others provide opinions, and have you taken them to task? You defend your choice, which I can understand and appreciate.

As for taking heat.... well that is plain silly. I have defended my position with logic and experience....you have also attempted to do this, but chose to include insults. My wording my not be to your liking, but I do not pretend to be many, or any of the names you have pinned on me.

Let us look at the thread logically....
- a short list of equipment was provide and opinions sought
- several opinions were provided and discussion ensued
- differing points of view were displayed
- peatro said he valued my input, and asked about pieces in the next level, which I supplied.
- Alan concurred with a name (Arcam) on the list, specified he liked the Denon, and mentioned to me that NAD had issues...which I thanked him for and did not take offense.
- you posted that you preferred Yamaha, citing some names on the short list as the next step...presumably for you.
- I agreed that features were probably greater in the Yamaha, but not in terms of sound reproduction...especially in the budget was greater. Based on history, I supplied the best Yamaha music piece...a little insulting, granted. But peatro did not want a features discussion.

From that point it became a rational discussion from my side, and an insult laden barrage from yours. Verbal thuggery accusations? Actually, a quick read of the thread will confirm this. My posts are from a neutral point of view, indicating a preference for utilizing certain parameters as a balancing point ( the cable issue, biamping, biwiring, to name but a few posts I have responded to - indicating an issue of contention, and accepting both sides) Yours start out that way, but become condescending.

We are providing no additional "positive" information to the peatro....wonder what became of him?? ;)

If we look at the thread, we are not as far apart as the posts might indicate:
- I mentioned that the best music piece may not be the best HT piece...which you also agreed on.
- I mentioned the budget may allow the original poster to reach above the short listed pieces....you mentioned your recommended choice was a stop gap, indicating a move to better gear was in your future.
- I have preached listening, preferably in similar environments and with the same components as a means of deciding the best for a person, you have also said this in agreement. However, to state it MUST happen ignores the fact that some people are not afforded the luxury. Many posters have indicated this fact in their own situation....including the original poster

So from that stand point we agree on several things.

Oh, and the dealer I mentioned who dropped the product? The reason was a large competitor dropped their hifi section, and focused on the HT arena. While he did not want to drop the segment, he chose to focus on an unfulfilled need in the community. He was already a mid-hi fi dealer, so he decided to focus on this. So, to address your comments, it was not based on equipment comparisons. He already had the mentality of setting the environment based on the purchaser, and spending quality time displaying the products in a well setup listening room. He tried to build a relationship and understand the customers. The large competitor is one of large open spaces, with row upon row of speakers, banks of receivers, CD and DVD players connected for easy and quick switching. I am sure you can guess where any customer would get the proper audtion of the product, and not a 15 second listen to each product.

But that is a discussion for another day....

Nice chatting with you. I am sure we will cross paths on another thread.


Regards,

BBIBH

With all due respect (simply stated so you don't tell me to butt out - very rude, this is an open forum), I think you both have stated your opinions in various tones. BBIBH makes a good point when he/she states that his/her posts are logical and not insulting. While we are all entitled to our opinions, no one person is right, and no one person is wrong. Alan made a comment that promoted a couple of products over your choice. But you did not take him to task.

Here is a thought, you mentioned that your Yamaha was a stop gap. If budget was the limiting item, and you had double the money - I have seen your Yamaha listed in a range of $700-$900 - is this still a sound choice for you?

I guess BBIBH presented brands above this range to provide balance. The orig. poster has more to spend, and he asked for the list.

I read the thread, and can see both sides, but the majority of ill sounding comments comes from Mr. Also.

You both have your positions, and defend them as required.

Let us get back to the original posted questions.

Good points. I was told to butt out because I challenged Also.

For my limited comprehension skills - I see exactly what seems to be the comments of abcd. Chip made his opinion known, so did Alan. But they were not attacked. Maybe BBIH was a little colourful in the piano ideaa, but seems isolated in the discussion.

This is an open forum, so perhaps acceptance is a virtue ABCD?

Rick

I think BBIBH could prove that the other equipment was eing outsold in a buddies store. Simply ask the buddy! Seems like a fact, not a shot at you.

You misread the comment about future sound. BBIBH stated if the system became a music system after being replaced, it would sound better than the Yamaha as a music receiver. Nothing confrontational here, just opinion and possibly facts. Perhaps you are too defensive, as it does not come across as being a shot at you.

I think what BBIBH meant that the source media may not provide all the information, and any receiver will not be able to add the missing information. I make this comment because BBIBH has stated this regarding music before, and the same probably can be said.

I also agree with the others, you seem to have gotten bent out of shape, especially when someone disagrees with you. You conveniently did not nail Alan, or Chip who posted opinions different from yours.

Bad form.

Andy

Alan and Ian posted saying amps have been proven to be the same sounding in double blind tests. When do you start attacjing them for this?

Can you post a list of your opnions? This would help those of us who don't want to get savaged by you. The thread reeks of garbage, on your part totatly. BB has stayed calm, must be tough with you lacing your feedback with insults

Just listening to the tirade going on here LOL...
The 761 is 1400$ CAN. All my budget would be gone. So far just by reading more on the web and listening to a few of the posts here my short list has dropped off one brand; ROTEL.

Thanks to BBIBH (sp?), I have been looking at other brands which I don't know much about ..(and wow there is nice stuff when you really go high -end). I am not even sure how much some of these even cost in CAN dollars so they may be out of reach for me budget wise :(, these brands are:
ARCAM, OUTLAW, and on and on ( insert BBIBH's high-end list here).

One thing I have been noticing is the shipping weight of each piece (not sure if it realy matters) but, I've heard that the weight of a piece is directly porportional to the qualtity (build) . I have to be carefull when comparing weights because the pieces must be similar in power /function.
So far the king of the hill in weight is:
NAD - 761 = 39 lbs.
NAD - 751 = 38 lbs.
DENON -3802 = 36lbs
YAMAHA -v1200 = 33 Lbs
DENON - 2802 = 25lbs (ewwh)
ROTEL - 972 = 33 lbs

The denon 2802, is actually the lightweight of the whole bunch.
Anyways they weight thing is just another parameter I will use for my decision process.

thanks folks, keep the informative posts coming.
and bee carefull out there.

Peatro

You have seen in the thread that each model you originally posted has been recommended by someone posting. I am curious, what decision to drop Rotel was made based on?

Weight can indicate larger pieces used in assembly, such as electrical components used in the ever important power supply. But as you mentioned, it should be a factor, not the deciding factor. I remember hearing a story of a British magazine that brutally reviewed a piece because of the light weight. The designer changed the model number, and riveted a clay brick inside. When it was resubmitted for review, the exact same piece was glowingly reviewed! Urban legend is what I chalked that up to, but I have heard several people who claim it to be true, and claim to be able to produce the reviews. Makes a statement about judging by factors alone.

Regards,

BBIBH

BBIH,
I need to drop something... :) Seriously, though. I don't have a definite reason why, I will probably add it back. Actually my list has not moved - its really getting more complicated. All these posts and research is creating more questions than answers.

Heres a small list of things (pos and neg) that are floating in my mind (I admit some points are biased and are not based solely on sound quality - which I apologize, as this is what I requested in my original post):

negs (these are quotes from various sources):
*1) "Rotel has their stuff made in China."
2) "English mnft's have just now started to take HT seriously"
3) "Rotel Availability problems - 1066"
4) "NAD - reliability issues"
* not to bash the chinese, and before I hold that against ROTEL, I will need to find out where the other mnft are made. I know DENON is in JAP, not sure about NAD - ?, YAM is JAP.

pos:
1) "REspected sound quality , both NAD and ROTEL, DENON"
2) "quality build - NAD and ROTEL (DENON in here as well)"

neg/pos:
Price: NAD and Rotel are on the high end of my budget. ie: For ex: the price of the NAD 761 (1490 CAN), I could get the meatier DENON 3802. So now I have to weigh the 3802 with the 761. now since I'm at this level I have to add the meatier YAM

I'm now realizing that my budget is not enough - 1500 is the threshold seperating great stuff from the audiophile stuff.

thoughts:
1) I like the idea of seperates. So now I am considering prices of a combo set up? (could I get a decent sep set up from say DEN or ROT for the 1500 range ) and would this be a better route than say the meatier 3802 al-in-one)
2) I like (alot) the look of both the ROTEL and NAD products. very sleek and minimalist - this is appealing. Both offer seperates - somthing DEN and YAM don't have.
3) The DENON /YAM has a stronger HT offering - since they have taken HT more seriously and for longer time that the english brands.

See, I'm very ready to make a decision on this ... not :)


ps: secretly I like (very much) the NAD ROTEL line ups.
but, being a current DENON owner I am hesitating.

thanks everyone, I enjoy your input.
Peatro

Glad to see you are doing your research. Well informed choices will result from this research.

In terms of the listing you provided, here are some thoughts:

Negs:
1) Probably true, as quite a few are made in the Far East.
2) Again, some have been in the market for a while, some only recently. But if they make quality audio pieces, utilizing the research and progress made by other companies in the HT arena, these companies could apply their audio principles to the recent developments in HT to design capable equipment.
3)Rotel 1066 line are preamps/preprocessors and power amp separates, which may be a factor. This availability fact may also carry over to other models.
4)Yes, Alan specified these had not been addressed.
You are correct in not being biased by country of origin - and NAD is made in the Far East, owned by a company in Canada (Lenbrook just outside Toronto).

Pros:
1+2 - understood qualitites of these manufacturers.

Neg/Pros:
- Yes, buy moving into different price points, it is only fair to compare other models of similar price.

Thoughts:

Yes, you make very solid points on all three. The benefit of separate pieces (pre/pro/amps) would be the ability to upgrade as newer technology is available. You would not be locked into a particular brand, especially if some particular piece of a specific manufacturer is lacking. This would depend on the weight you place on flexibility. As you mention, some manufacturers may not offer separates that allow this. The problems with this is the cost, as each piece needs quality cables, and separate boxes require a replication of parts per chassis - ie duplicate power supplys, cases, etc. This can be a benefit, if the designs are quality for the outset.

So, you have received answers to intitial questions...that have spawned more questions. This is a situation similar to making any significant purchase. You are researching, studying, and I would venture to say will be happy when you are done.

You mentioned currently owning a Denon. If you are happy with it, why would you be looking at other models? If you are a happy customer, you are your own best reference! ;)

Regards,

BBIBH

Thanks again BBIBH,
I have always like the philosophy (sp?) of the NAD and ROTEL , no frills just good engineering. But the last point (being a current denon owner) will weigh heavy. The reason I am considering other components is that I purchased the DENON 10 years ago... times have changed and brands can slowly morph. (I know this probably hasn't happened with the DEnon) but you never know, companies are always trying to squeek every last bit of profit out of their products,

just look at the SONY brand... :)

that should get the thread going! :)

thanks everyone ..especially AXIOM!