Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater HELP!!! With HD Audio Formats

Hello Audioholics,
I would really appreciate if someone could help me understand a few things before I go ahead and upgrade from my current Yamaha HTR-5740 receiver and Yamaha upconverting DVD player to a blu ray hi def dvd player and a receiver that supports hi def audio formats.

1.If I buy a blu ray player that has on-board decoders for dolby true hd/dts hd or dts hd master, but use an a/v receiver that does not have decoders for these audio formats (like Yamaha rx-v661), will I be able to hear hi def sound from my speakers.
2. If my dvd player does not have on-board decoders for hi-def audio formats (like Samsung BDP-S1400) but I use a receiver that has on-board HD audio decoders (like an Onkyo TX-SR605 or Yamaha RX-V663), will that give me hi def sound from my speakers.
3. I am also not quite clear on 'bitstream' output and uncompressed pulse code modulation (PCM) and what role they play in how a DVD/CD player outputs audio

1. If your blu-ray player decodes the sound internally then you will need a receiver that can accept multichannel PCM through HDMI to be able to hear the new high-def formats since that's what the player would output after decoding. Basically regardless of the format (Dolby or DTS) you would see "PCM" light up on your receiver.

2. If your player doesn't decode the new formats on-board then it will need to bitstream them through HDMI and you then need a receiver that can decode the new formats. In this case the receiver should show "Dolby TrueHD" or "DTS HD" when playing them.

3. Bitstream means that the player just outputs the compressed soundtrack as it is on the disc and lets the receiver handle the decoding. PCM is a digital sound encoding format that is uncompressed (it's the format used on audio cds by the way), and that's usually what a player will output after decoding the new formats internally. In the end it shouldn't matter which one the receiver gets since they both should give you the same data as the new high-def formats are lossless and even in the case of bitstream the sound data ends up decoded as pcm before sound effects (if enabled) are applied by the receiver internally.

Does that make sense?

Skyhawk, makes perfect sense. Thanks a ton. Just to make sure I got it right, if I have a receiver that can handle dolby HD/DTS HD (I understand that DTS HD master is different from these two, right?), I can get any blu ray player as long as it can bitstream over HDMI.
While I have you on this topic, I am a Yamaha fan. The only reason why I was looking at onkyo was due to its ability to handle HD audio formats. If I buy a blue ray player that has on board decoders for HD formats, i can go ahead with getting Yamaha RX-V661 that does not have any onboard decoding for HD audio. Is there a bluray player u can recommend. i am thinking Panasonic D30?

DolbyTrueHD and DTS HD Master are the equivalent (lossless, up to 24bits/192Khz). DTS HD is a super-DTS, but it is lossy.

I'm not familiar with the Yamaha RX-V661, as long as it's capable to accept multichannel PCM through HDMI and apply it's effects and eq to it (if desired) then yes it would work.

About blu-ray players I can't say since I haven't tried any of them; I currently use a ps3 to watch my blu-rays.

I'm sure somebody else will chime in with some good recommendations though... Anyone? Bueller?

Does it work well with the PS3 I am thinking of getting a PS3 as my Blu Ray player. I know my Integra DTR 7.8 can stream DTS-HD and DolbyTrue HD. Will this be a good fit.

Thanks

The PS3 doesn't bitstream any of the HD formats. It internally decodes them and outputs them to the receiver as multichannel PCM. It can decode all new formats except DTS HD:MA as of right now (which is a big argument against it if that matters to you).

Do you know if PS3 is hardware limited for doing DTS HD:MA or software? I am also hearing Dolby True HD and DTS HD:MA are pretty much same audio quality (lossless up to 24 bits/192 K Hz.

The more I learn the more difficult it gets making a decision. I am hearing that due to issues with pretty much every blu-ray player out there, the best option is to go with a PS3 as blu ray player. It will not only play all blu ray disks out there but since the firmware can be updated easily, it should have no issues playing any future blu ray disks (coming out in 2008 with more internet based features). It also has onboard decoders for new HD audio formats (Dolby Ture HD/DTS HD) except DTS HD:Master (correct me if I am wroing here guys).
As mentioned above, my dilemma is that I want to upgrade to a good blu ray player that will last me a while, an AV receiver that doesnt go out dated in a months time.
Does anyone know if PS3 is hardware limited for decoding DTS HD Master or software. If it is software then sony may resolve this issue in the coming days and PS3 becomes an obvious choice and any decent receiver that can handle uncompressed PCM will be able to put out HD audio to the speakers. If PS3 is hardware limited then one will have to look for a blu ray player that can handle DTS HD master (now or in future) and maybe then go with an AVR that can decode all HD audio formats.
I know I have made this note long but one last question: If I do decide to go with PS3 as my blu ray player, does it matter what hard disk size I go with? Are there any other important features I need to make sure my PS3 has (I think HDMI 1.2 out and optical digital out is a standard for PS3s) so it could be my blu ray player of the future.

Thanks guys.

The PS3 doesn't have onboard hardware decoders for HD sound. It's all done in software, thus it could be that one day a firmware upgrade will allow it to decode DTS HD:MA, it's definitely capable of doing it computing-wise, the question is will it ever be done?

To me if DTS Master were very important then I wouldn't buy the ps3 with the hope it will later be added when there's no guarantee they will, even if possible. Since I dodn't mind not having it for now I'm fine with the possibility that it might never be upgraded to decode DTS Master.

The disk space really doesn't matter at all, even more knowing that you can replace it with a bigger size drive (regular laptop hdd) easily and without voiding the warranty.

Wow, I actually understand bitstream and pcm now. Thanks!

Whoohoo, me too!

Oh, ok, I didnt know that PS3 does it all in the software. i was under the impression that it has on board decoders (hardware) for HD audio. It doesnt really matter to me if it is hardware or software as long as it can decode Dolby TRUE HD and DTS HD. Skyhawk, you know this for a fact that except for DTS HD Master, a PS3 will handle everything else, right?

I haven't tried it myself since I don't have a receiver that can play multichannel pcm, but any user feedback I've read about it confirms that. I haven't heard of anybody not being able to play them on the ps3

Sorry if I am asking dumb questions but I am a newbie to this whole thing.

If my Integra has HD formats with it do it for the PS3.

I don't know if this makes sense.

If you have pretty bad eyesight and the wrong font, "pcm" looks a lot like "porn"

If that's the case, Ken is finally growing up.

Either that, or he was having trouble with the plot lines.

mtlmike,

The PS3 outputs HD formats as pcm so your receiver needs to be able to receive multichannel pcm through HDMI, and I'm assuming that if your receiver is recent enough to have HD format decoding capability then it should be able to receive pcm as well (big assumption...).

What model do you have?

My receiver is an Integra DTR 7.8

Wishful thinking Tom?

From what I can tell this receiver does accept multichannel PCM so it would work with a ps3.

Your Integra DTR 7.8 decodes all the HD formats, so you will probably need a player that will send the sound formats to your receiver via bitstream, the PS3 will not do this and I'm not sure since the Integra decodes whether it will accept PCM. If it does accept PCM then I don't know if it will still decode the Master DTS.

The Integra does accept PCM. So I think the PS3 is the best bet around.

I posted some information regarding audio formats a while ago. You might find it informative, or not...

http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthre...true#Post181572

Earlier in this thread we have established that the ps3 will not decode DTS Master as of yet if ever. But all other formats are decoded and sent as pcm. From what I can read of the specs and function of the Integra it does accept multichannel pcm so it would work fine.

It all depends on your priorities really, for a lot of people a standalone player makes more sense, for others the ps3 is a better solution right now.

In my case I think the ps3 is great since I don't really care for the HD formats as I don't have a receiver that can accept them or PCM and I'm not planning on upgrading yet. Also I really enjoy the gaming on it so it's a winning combination. I do expect eventually to buy a standalone player in a couple of years when it makes more sense.

I agree I am a gamer to so I will wait till something comes out with all formats but as of right now I have a sweet deal on a ps3

The HD sound formats really are a big step above the normal sound tracks. I have yet to hear the DTS HD Master but from those who have heard it say it is exceptional. I'm happy with my PS3 and if they do decide to upgrade it so it will play HD DTS I'll be a happy camper. If not, in a year or so I'll purchase a stand alone that will.

That's exactly what I'm planning on doing. Since I won't be able to upgrade my receiver in a while I didn't try listen to the new formats so that I wouldn't be tempted once I hear how good they sound . We'll see how long that lasts...

Does your pcm look like porn? Blame it on keming.

The word was just invented last week.

Ha!


Yes, I did have to look up the word kern.

I own an Integra DTC-9.8 and a PS3. Just wanted to confirm that the PS3 will decode most of the HD audio formats and send them via PCM to the Integra. DTS HD Master will be decoded as a 1.5Mbps DTS "core" track, but most of my Blu-rays have been Dolby TrueHD, so no worries there.

As far as DTS HD Master tracks go, my favorite is the HD DVD of Pan's Labyrinth. The best sounding disc I have ever heard, regardless of audio codec, is the Dave Matthews / Tim Reynolds show from Radio City Music Call on Blu-ray (TrueHD).

I will be re-buying that in bluray once I get a bluray player. I bought it on DVD and it is Amazing even in the lossy format

What does keming mean?

The Blu-ray also has the regular DD track, so I went back and forth between the two on a couple songs. The DD track does sound as good as the format will most likely allow, but in contrast the TrueHD track is just outstanding. The Blu-ray also contains a 2 channel uncompressed PCM track which sounds damn good, especially if you want all the sound up front in the M80's.

One correction. 1400 decodes all HD audio formats except for Master Audio. But it can bitstream all formats (including MA)

help me help you. ?

if your blu ray player can handle all the new fancy audio, this and that, then what the heck do i set it to output??

bitstream, pcm, blah, blah, blah, blah.

seriously, i have a denon 2808ci that can handle all the fancy new audio. so i guess i set my panny bd30 and tosh a3 to bitstream. or is that pcm?

I believe you want bitstream

^^^^ i am a winner!! i was just a bit confused as i had it setup this way on my toshiba a3, but when playing the matrix the denon did not flash trued hd on its display.

maybe it doesnt. i could totally hear the diff when switching audio formats in the dvd menu. it was actually very impressive.

i should stop posting. my HT has been up an running ofr 5 hours and i have done no setup. i am bad. but it looks so good.

later.