Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners EP350v3, EP600 and 15" Velodyne

Hi everyone,

Jason (jakewash) and Greg (framer) pulled me out of my working trance for an afternoon of sub auditions. Greg brought his EP350v3 over and Jason "borrowed" a 15' Velo 15" from FutureShop. We watched scene 15 of U-571 and The Eagles Farewell Tour I to compare these two with my EP600.

Let's get the Velodyne out of the way first. It's boomy, rumbly and loud and absolutely perfect for the undiscerning listener. The best features are that it comes with a remote to allow you to turn it off and it's also quite easy to package up for a return . As I'm writing this, I am reminded of the final scene between Creedy and Chancellor Sutler in V for Vendetta. Creedy exclaims "Disgusting!".

The big surprise for me was the 350v3. Axiom nailed this one boys and girls. I am so happy for Greg because I think this is one great sub. It's perfect for home theatre and music. And it looks great in the high gloss cherry as you can see in the photo below.

Ian and Amie may get upset with me for saying this but I always strive to be honest so here goes: in my 4,000 cubic foot room, the 350v3 sounded better than the 600. The 350v3 sounded tighter and was just as smooth and powerful as the 600. And of course it's priced $1000 less.

I don't want to get into technical arguments about DSPs and enclosure volumes (because I don't have the time) but let's just say that higher technology and larger box volume do not necessarily equate to better sound.

I am very pleased to see that Axiom has designed a sub for home theatre and music that is affordable for the masses and is suitable for 80% of the home theatre spaces out there.

I'll let Jason fill in details about the Velo and compare the 350 to the 400. If I was in the market for a sub today, the EP350v3 would be the one for me.

BTW, I'm still loving my audiobytes.

That's a v3, bud.

Welcome back. Don't be a stranger.

Hey, it's Mojo! Good to hear from you again.

Hey guys . I'm out of practice so thanks for the correction.

I'm just aware of the difference right now. And your post makes me very excited.

That port is the wrong shape. I hope.

No kidding. That should make you even more excited about your incoming sub.

Tom's getting into Peter's territory, here...

You were excited. I saw a port. I thought of bigjohn.

Sounds like you were getting excited.

Ok, so who's going to do the EP500v2 vs. EP350v3 shoot-off?

The Velodyne sub was a DLS-5000R I purchased this sub knowing very little about it other than on another forum it was mentioned as not being that good, distorted, like the Axiom (Axiom distorted, what?)subs, so I wanted to see what the posters frame of reference was.

As Tex said it is great at low notes but is not very articulate while doing it. It was very evident it sounded different than the Axioms on the very first note(pink noise for calibrating) that it played. It does have good power and would make a number of people happy to have it in their HT setup(just not me). The remote is a good idea and the sub comes with some 4 built in preset EQs, ie, movie, games, jazz etc. I couldn't hear a difference at home so we never even went into it. I wouldn't recommend this sub for music at all it is just too bloated to feel natural. It was fun for the first minute or so but then became very annoying.

Well, as Tex said the EP350 is infact much better than I gave it credit for, after pushing the limits of it further than I did at Greg's, it showed me just what a great sub for the money it truly is. We had run the EP600 at max output from the Denon and then switched to the EP350 and the 600 sounded little distorted, IMO, while the 350 kept on a thumping, I said thumping not ...never mind, the 350 never lost its composure and easily filled Tex's room with wonderous LFE. I did notice that on the initial fire up the 600 appeared to have more power/shake during the depth charge scene as it was easy to feel the couch vibrations with the explosions but a minor adjustment louder on the 350 made up the difference later on. I could easily see using 2 EP350v3 for larger rooms with out any problems at all, the single one worked great in Tex's 4000cf room.

Next up for the EP350 and EP600 will be a test against a SVS PB12-NSD, about the same price as the EP350v3. I should be receiving it sometime next week or early the following week hopefully.

oh, gawd, don't. please.

After the SVS, Jason will be bringing over the Elemental Designs monster. We won't rest until we rip the fabric of space-time in my basement with acoustically-induced worm holes .

I will be looking forward to your thoughts on the 400 pound beast

Well, wear a cup or something.

Very interesting, Mo. Apparently, as Alan reported from his comparative double-blind listening tests, the 350v3 is indeed a significant advance, and an excellent choice in a mid-priced sub.

Yes, this sounds like a fun and worthwhile bit of comparison. I always figured I'd end up with another EP600, but I may have to follow Randy's lead and go with 2 EP350v3 subwoofers, assuming I'm ever determined enough to tackle that much calibration and tinkering.

<innocent> What kind of sub do you have, Tom? </innocent>

He doesn't come around for awhile, I stealthily bring him back in to the mix and look what I have to do to pay for it. What have I done?

Is that the 400+ pounds sub? Geez. I hope you will be allowed to borrow one of Purolator's van for this! And maybe a lift too?

Nice report Jason and Mojo. That Velodyne DLS-5000R is a real departure for Velo and I suspect just a made in China sub labelled Velodyne for sale through the big box stores. Products like this just hurt the brand. I've never liked subs with big unflared slot vents because of all the noise inherent with that type of port. In addition FR is anything but linear, in fact its more humped than even the old SVS models. Worse, its THD doesn't decline to less than 10% until 30hz and above. No surprise it sounds so bad.

Judging by your and other reports, the EP350v3 appears to be a real winner especially at that price. It may not go as deep as a EP600 but a pair of 350v3 would be an excellent alternative and perhaps better than a single 600 because of all the additional benefits you get from dual subs. I have to find a pair to audition.

I'll have to do more testing. Not sure I would go as far to say the 350 does a better job than my 600, maybe mojo's sub is defective. Keep in mind, I do believe his 600 has the new firmware with the brickwall higher. Mojo, didn't you tell me once via PM your previous 600 performed better than your new altered one?

My twin 350v3's in Ebony are killer and they continue to suprise me on punch and how low they will go. I'll keep testing and going back/forth between the two.

No, I have the old firmware...same as yours.

Ok, I was thinking you had said you disabled the original amp when trying to upgrade yourself. And the replacement was revised at the factory with initial feedback as being worse than your original amp.

The replacement amp that Axiom sent me had the original firmware. The only thing that is different in my 600 now is the driver. I have the driver that is made with dull rather than shiny aluminum. The dull aluminum doesn't go as well with my beaver . I replaced the driver due to noise at lower frequencies with high SPLs. The noise is no longer there.

I pity new forum members trying to figure that one out!

Meh, all us Canucks have a beaver or two somewhere in the livingroom...

Is it the inflatible type or the real deal.

Some are furry, others are shiny or smooth.

Some are getting on in years and are considering pricey rejuvenation surgery.






(over the line?)

Waayyy over the line, my beaver is quite offended. If you start getting nasty pms from my account, don't blame it on me, its the beaver!!

I keep checking the status of the SVS and it just keeps saying in transit, now I remember how it felt to get my Axioms.

I just realized that the announcement for the 350V3 was made in mid-October. Maybe there are no graphs or specs because Axiom didn't have a chance to put it up on the pole yet.

I still like my conspiracy theory better though. If everyone loves the 350, then Axiom may decide to degrade its performance to prevent cannibalization of the 500 & 600. They can do that you know since the full specs aren't published.

Come to think of it, we better all buy 350s now before Axiom decides to degrade them. It's a good thing I came back to look out for all of your best interests .

Yep, my guess is that they have not done any outside testing. It has to be calm, in additon to warmer out.

Well, they had to have done some testing on pre-release product to complete the engineering/design. Since they have an on site sound chamber-thingy, I expect they would have done some testing there as well.

I will ask tomor... er, later today when I am there.

Gotta get some sleep.

Can't test below 80Hz in the chamber-thingy. That's what the pole is for.

Ahh. Chamber too small for those big soundwaves?

Last summer (or this fall?) there was mention of a new chamber at Axiom designed for subs only. I don't where they are with that project (if it's even started!).

The subwoofers are tested outside up on the tower when nice weather is calm. This is the best scenario to achieve true readings, and eliminate room characteristics created by the long wavelengths.

I hate it when nice weather is not calm .

When it is 90+ degrees, I like a little breeze.

OK folks, here's the scoop on the ep350 specs. They are the same as the older v2 because... they are the same as the older v2.

So why does the v3 sound so much better? Dynamic response. New cabinet + re-designed amp = more headroom and better response in the same frequency range as before, or so Tom says. Man that guy likes his job!

That is interesting since I received conflicting feedback from others at Axiom via phone and PM. I'll have to call them back.

I find it interesting to believe that the freq response would stay the same with a larger improved amp using dynamic response, larger cabinet like the 500 (this is important), same driver/port as 500, etc. Think about the 500 versus 600, what is different.

Fred, more specifically, the sizes of the wedges in anechoic chambers determine the lowest frequency which is still anechoic. Those in the Axiom and NRC chambers are said to be efficient down to about 85Hz.

Hey, thought I replied to this yesterday.

Thats the spec strait from Tom Cumberland. Debbie didn't believe him. He said the reason it sounds so much better than the old v2 is that it has much better response time and more amp headroom for dynamics.

Thanks John. That chamber is freaky.

Well then...the specs have changed if it has better response time and more amp headroom for dynamics! Are you sure Tom wasn't having some of the good stuff from the back cabinet ?

Woohoo, the sub will be dropped off today. So get get ready Tex and Greg, one more test run to do.

Tomorrow's out. Let me check on Friday and the week-end. Al wanted to come as well with his audiophile buddy.

Sounds like fun, I have it for 45 days(or longer if I like it) so no big rush guys. The 21st is Good Friday we should all have the day off? Maybe Robb could even attend for a comparison to the EP500 as well. Hey this is starting to sound like another Calgary GTG. Everyone's invited!

Where is Rob?

He has been posting, but not too much lately.

Well the SVS arrived today and my first impressions are:

It is the best sub I have had in my house(but I have only had 3 other good subs in the house). It has some solid impact and goes low. Even at lower volumes I can still get a good thud or bump in a movie to shake the couch, very cool. I have done very little set up other than initial calibration level. I even like the way it blends with the M80s while listening to music.

Now Greg, Tex and I have to try to get together one more time for a full comparison.

Unfortunately this week is definitely out and now the wait is killing me.

For those of us too old to remember or too lazy to look for the info, could you please list those 3 subs you currently have in your house? Thx. (er, the THX here is short for thanks and should not be considered as a certification... I don't want to get sued!)

I have only had 3 good subs in my house. I never owned them just listened. I had ctown's STF-3 hooked up at one time, the EP400 and a couple of weeks ago the Paradigm DSP-3100, the Velodyne wasn't too bad but I wouldn't put it in the same league as the HSU or the Paradigm for that matter, as an all around sub.

The only sub I have ever owned is my 13 yr old Costco special.

I am looking forward to round 2 of the sub comparison. I just hope we can get together before I have to send it back, if it doesn't stand up to the Axioms.

Thanks. Sounds interesting.

Hey fellas, let me know what works.

I'm playing Mr. Mom on friday(tomorrow) and I'm in Banff this weekend, so next week is better for me. Or otherwise tomorrow I might be able to make something work.

My buddy is interested in hearing some axiom products and wants to come along. His main setup is mostly Rotel gear and some Polk RT1000i's. He's also got a setup in his family room using some JBL's and having problems with the sub that goes with them.

We are both around most of next week and in sales, so could even get out of the office during the day if needed.

later, Al

PM sent Al.

One more thing I noticed about the SVS, it came double boxed as well as the usual styrofoam packing, 2 extra fuses and a SVS promotional pen thrown in with the manual, a nice touch. The manual actually goes into the basics of setting up a sub and that a SPL meter is a must for HT setups. They also list off a number of movie scenes to check out 'deep bass' as they put it. Here are few from their list that I wouldn't have thought of:

The Iron Giant: Chase Thru Forest -scene 8, Robot Landing - scene 10 and Green Boom - scene 27
Appollo 13: Lift Off - scene13, Coming Home -scene 53
Titanic: We can't leave him -scene22, Ship splitting at 2:41:30 of the movie
Apocalypse Now: Chopper Ride -scene 2, ARC LIGHT scene 4, Grenade Launch scene 12
Dark City: Let the tuning Commence - scene 8, City Makeover - scene 15

Iron Giant...good one. We'll have to try that here.

I'm not surprised that the Velodyne didn't impress. I bought the CHT-12 several years ago even though I initially wanted to buy the CHT-15 (predecessor of the DLS-5000, I think) because it was bigger, and the top of the line (at least the CHT line), and more expensive. But the CHT-12 sounded much better so that is what I bought. At this point, I'm pretty convinced that I could have done slightly better with Axiom, or SVS, or Hsu, but I'm very happy with the CHT-12.

What I find curious is that both Velodyne and Axiom seem to have a line of subwoofers where the price and size are not necessarily proportional to performance. Is there some physics (cabinet size or something) that explains this?

The cabinet size, driver size, amp power and design, it all has a relationship to one another, some products work very well together and some things are just forced to work together without great results.

Fog, it may help you to understand that getting the last few Hertz out of a sub is an expensive proposition.

It takes 8 times as much power and moving air to make 20Hz sound as loud as 40Hz for example. Along with more power, this requires a larger enclosure. The challenge is of course that as you make the enclosure larger, you need even more amplifier power and a larger driver motor with greater excursion and power handling capabilities.

I'm slowly reaching the conclusion that sub sound is a matter of personal taste. Many out there for example like the sound of a "softer" sounding sub that has a lack of presence, kick/punch but nonetheless reaches down very low and tickles your gut. Others like a "harder" sub (which may or may not go down very low) that belts you in the chest.

Wouldn't it be great to have a sub where you can switch between hard and soft depending on mood and/or material?

Do the Hsu VTF subs count? You can switch between "Maximum Output" or "Maximum Extension" modes.

I don't know but I think in order to get the "soft" and "deep" sound, you need an "over-size", vented cabinet. It would be interesting to hear from someone that has a Hsu how this switch affects "softness"/"hardness".

I've switched between the two and have heard minimal differences. I only use the sub for HT, though, so I always have it on Maximum Extension.

Well said. I think that this may be the difference between the EP400 and the 350 (at least to me). I have always been more sensitive to high spls. As a kid, and even into my early 30s certain power tools (like a skil-saw) really hurt my ears. As a kid I used to leave the room whenever my dad fired up the power tools.

I wonder if the reason I think the ep400 has more kick than the ep350 is that it pushes more air at lower frequencies and I am just more sensitive to that.

I think that puts me into the 'softer sub' catagory.

I doubt very much that the 400 pushes more air than the 350v3 even at 20Hz. I've been struggling to understand how you heard more "kick" with the 400 compared to the 350. Are you sure it was the v3 350?

Now that I think about it thogh, the other thing that may have contributed to what you were hearing was the room. I suspect the 350 has a hump at 40Hz to 60Hz (and a corresponding dip up to 40Hz). Between 20Hz to 40Hz, room gain compensates for the 350 dip in smaller rooms. The 400 on the other hand has a flat response in these same regions due to DSP compensation. So if you were in a larger room, the 350's dip wasn't being corrected by room gain and the 400 therefore had more kick because it was flat.

So what were the dimensions of the room?

This one puzzles me too, though my observation was consistant with what Debbie at Axiom expected.

Was it a 350, gee, I dunno... You'd think the folks at Axiom knew which was which... Yes it was definately a 350 v3.

Maybe you were listening to a broken 400??? Maybe I am super sensitive to some particular low frequency??? grasping...

Their listening room is 12 x 20 x 7.

All I know is that (for music) the 350 at 1/2 volume didn't give me that preassure feeling on my ears compared to the 400 at minimum volume. It was quite distinct.

I wish I was closer to you guys so I could listen some more to the two subs.

Those room dimensions totally discredit my theory.

I think he feels the lower smoother, thump of the 400 is better suited to his tastes while we like the harder impact of the 350.

Wait till you get a load of the SVS. I am watching Star Wars Episode 1 with my son and this thing shakes the house like I have never felt, hits hard and rumbles nice and low, almost like the Velodyne and EP350 were mated.

So then I wonder what the Ultra feels and sounds like.

I know, I am sooo tempted to make that purchase when this one goes back.

I have no regrets with my ultra.

Am I the 'he' you are referring to? If so, I wouldn't say I prefer the 400 at all. I found it too overpowering for music.

Now, I know some people don't like to use a sub for music, but with the EP350 it really opened up the bottom end for me.

Thinking on it, the 350 did what a great speaker should, became transparent. The 400 imposed itself on the music. I felt preasure on my ears in a way I never have before with music.

How that translates to movies and lfe I don't know. I guess I should have listened to 400 on movies as well.

It will be interesting to see how the 350 stacks up against that SVS you have.

Thanks for clarifying, fred. You were the 'he' I was speaking of. I can only guess that they perhaps had the 400 a little hot, or perhaps it is just that it has a punchier sound to it that was causing the pressure you were feeling? When I had the 400 in house I found it to be just as you described the 350, transparent, and it was not overpowering in the least. I guess this is why I am having a hard time with what you are saying about it, none the less, I agree the 350 is a superior sub all around.

I am really enjoying the SVS, but as I have said, I haven't have anything of this quality in my house so I really want to do the side by side comparison for a much truer picture of what this sub is doing.

I know Jakeman says the 400 is great for music because of the sealed design.

The 400 must have been set too hot.

Hot as in too much volume? That sucker was at the lowest setting and it hurt my ears. Maybe I'm just the sensitive type.

I really don't know why my experience with the 400 is so different.

Though you bring up a good point. With an spl meter two feet from my nose, it never occured to me to check the spls on the sub and the mains to see that they were the same.

Hot, as in too much volume. Now I am wondering if we had a bad 400?

Hmmm...I think Axiom should ship us another one to try .

That thought had crossed my mind Jason.

I'm wondering if I should swing by axiom again just to compare subs and report back. I plan to head up that way a couple of times this summer to paddle anyway.