Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater VP150 vs. M22 (or 2xM22) for center channel

I've read some FUD regarding horizontal centers and especially the VP150 with its TMT configuration -- especially phasing / cancellation concerns. Does Axiom do something magic with the VP150 to make an arrangement that nobody else uses work out? Would I do better to place an M22 (or two, side by side) on short stands in front of my DLP as a center? Placing one down and one up *may* be feasible but the top would be close to an overhang in the alcove where the set lives.

How big is your room?

I used 2 M2s, one above, and one below my 92" screen in a 1900 cu.ft. room with lots of headroom left, and they sound simply amazing.

I have also heard the VP150, and I can say that I much prefer the sound of two M2s over 1 VP150 any day.

It's roughly 3000 ft^2.

Axiom sent me a terse reply when I asked them, one that didn't really answer my questions:

"Several of our customers have utilized dual M22v2 as center channels with excellent results, however phasing/cancellation issues to occur using the VP150 are unlikely."

3000 cu.ft. is not too big for dual M2s (IMHO). You should give it a try. They really do sound great! Wire them in parallel for a 4 ohm load.

It's a question that comes up a lot. If you do a few searches (using the google search tool in the Water Cooler, you'll find a fair amount of discussion on it, both positive and negative. Short story, Ian was experimenting with the VP150 config, and this one sounded really good. The phasing may be an issue with pink noise, Alan says, but it's not evident with actual material.

Warms me heart to read that. I can hardly wait to see how the M2s sound as centers.

From what I understand, the reason centers are the way they are is to fit in tight spaces and look good. They are a compromise and a small pair of decent bookshelves will always sound better.

Some centers actually offset their mids and tweeters and are supposed to perform better, but they are taller and don't fit into a lot of stands.

Anthony, as always, I have to mention that I haven't heard the VP150, but over the past several years here I've frequently suggested that a vertical center(M2, M22, whatever)be considered in preference to any horizontal MTM configuration in order to gain wider and smoother horizontal dispersion.

By them all and let us know which you like better.

I have tried my M22s as centers and they do sound better than the single VP150. So far as off axis goes with the M22s being on either side of the TV had some issues, as the nearest M22 was always louder, thus the sound was not centered.

The VP150 always has a centered sound to it but does measure 1.5 db lower about 20-25 deg. off axis, in my room, it is still clear, but does sound less loud when comparing direct to off axis.

I have a vp150 and found it to be a bit too generous on the deep end with not enough brightness on the higher end - most notable with dialog. I tried used a pair of m2s, on their side with tweeters turned on the outer ends.
My receiver is an Anthem D2 and has different settings for center speaker to compensate for placement (like a shelf, or top of a TV) Using the different setting, and applying them to the m2s and the vp150 I found I could get several "sounds" from both set us. In the end I've settled on using the pair of m2s. Dialog seems a bit brighter, clearer and seems to cover a wider spectrum in terms of sound placement. In the end it's all about room acoustics and what works for the individual. But I found the difference quite amazing in terms of how different it all sounded blending with the rest of the system.
- Scott

Placement with the vp150 is very important. This same argument is true for all of your speakers, but the center channel is where most dialog comes from and if it is off a little bit then you definitely will notice. I have a tv stand similar to this one.

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Z-line-De...roductDetail.do

Actually I have a stand by z-line designs that was made for crt's up to 36" so it is a little bit deeper than this one but now quite as wide.

When I first got my axiom setup the only place that I could put the vp150 was on the shelf below the tv or on top of the tv itself (since I had an old 32" crt). I tryed on the shelf below and put the vp150 so that it angled up and it didn't sound right. It sounded hollow with dialog and almost as it was firing out of a box (it was kind of). I then tried to put it on top of the tv. It didn't sound much better. It didn't sound as hollow like in the first placement, but it was firing right over the top of my head and I could tell that it was doing that. I couldn't angle it down since then it wouldn't be very stable because of its size in comparison to the tv. I never tried to rig anything up so that I could angle it down on top of the tv since I was planning on getting a new tv within the next year. Well, finally this past January I got a plasma tv and I am still using the same tv stand. Now I have it placed on the top shelf along with the tv. This wasn't an option before since the crt was too deep to allow both the tv and speaker on the top shelf. The vp150 is right in front of the tv up to the edge of the shelf and angled up a slight bit with rubber feet. It sounds amazing. All of the shortcomings of the other two placement options are gone. I can't image a direct radiating speaker sounding any better. I don't even have any room for a direct radiating speaker.

- Nick

I have a Tech Craft stand, unfortunately a corner model because I didn't know any better at the time, which complicates getting an LD player to fit on the shelf. But I digress ...

If I shift my DLP all the way to the back, the most space I can get on the front of the stand is about 5", and the foot for the TV complicates the idea of placing a horizontal center right on top of the stand unless I come up with some sort of blocks to put at either end -- and even so I would expect the VP150 to be front-heavy so I'd need to strap it down somehow too for stability.

I've thought about placing the VP150 on a couple of stands right in front of the TV/stand to elevate it to the level of the TV's built-in speakers, just below the display area. This would admittedly be somewhat awkward, especially wrt getting to equipment on the shelves.

Back when I was looking at Atlantic Technology speakers, I appreciated the fact that the center had both HF rolloff and boundary compensation switches on their centers, but with a better modern AVR like the beloved Denon 3808, does Audyssey effectively do the same thing?

Many of the vertical-center discussions I've found talk about the M2 above and below but I would think that the M2 would be a better match for small-room systems with bookshelf mains than with the M80's I'm planning, and that an M22 would be the better option - it would seem to be more comparable to the VP100, at least. If I raised the TV up on a 6" plinth of some sort, I could fit an M50 in there but I think that'd be pushing things from a WAF and safety -- not to mention viewing -- angle.

Either way, my system will likely be overkill for my needs anyway. Frequent listening positions will likely be at most 20º off-center, and within (perhaps just barely) the fronts.

If I do decide to order both an M22 and a VP150 to try for a center, might someone out there be able to recommend good test material for use when comparing the two?

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you had a space after each .JPG.

doh!

I'm planning M80's for roughly where the old Bose boxes are sitting. Center placement is something of a quandary. If I get an AVR to replace the Sony pictured, it'll be tall enough that it'll pretty much mean taking out the shelf, and there wouldn't be space next to it for a horizontal center. I can either pull the whole thing forward a bit and rig some sort of rack behind it for the AVR (and LDP) or plop a horizontal center on top.

a deer!

A shemale deer?

Y'all be stealing my lines.

Well, Doc does. Peter... you can keep that one.

Anthony,

let us know how it goes, if it makes any difference, after I upgrade to the M80s, I will be getting M2s as centre channels, even in a larger room I would do it. The M2s are amazing.

Real men don't buy horizontal centers.

They don't buy horizontal women, either.

Why M2's and not M3's or M22's?

I will guess, M3s due to different sonic signature, M22s- cost and size issue, but if you can afford them and have the room, I would get them over M2's.

we don't "buy" women, they come to us.

In my experience listening to vp150s in various rooms and configurations I've never noticed any phasing or lobing artifacts. Its one of those speaker designs where the conventional wisdom doesn't translate into real world situations. Its a fine sounding speaker whether used as singles, duals or as can be seen below in the entire front array. Whether or not it meshes well depends on how its integrated with the rest of your system and room acoustics.

you're bang on. Also, a vertical M22 above and below the screen isn't exactly aesthetically pleasing either...I would say if I had a dedicated room with alot of volume to fill, I would probably use 4 M2s (2 above and 2 below) and it would look freaking cool too.

And here we go again with the center channel overkill... no, of course I need no stereo separation!