Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Advice Please

Hey folks, I'm new to the world of surround sound and am looking for some honest advice from those of you axiom owners with first hand experience. I'm wanting to build a surround system and have pretty much decided on trying the axiom line of speakers given the excellent reviews... My problem is which ones?


My room dimensions are 11'W X 16.5'L X 7'H. I'm looking not only for a good HT experience but something that really shines musically. I'm thinking of getting the M80ti based system but I'm uncertain as to whether this would simply be over kill and wondering if the increase in cost would yield an equal improvement in sound quality.

1) Would this system simply be too overpowering for a room this size ? ( its possible at some point I'd have a larger room but can't imagine it'd be much more that twice the size) I've read one review saying the M80's aren't suitable for smaller rooms but have noticed people on the forum with M80's and a room size similar to mine?

2) Will I get a better sounding system with the M80's over the M60, M50, M40 systems? How about the differences between the surrounds and subs. Would the extra cost of the QS8's, VP150 and EP350 offer an equivalent increase in improved sound...?

3) Any suggestions on alternate Axiom configurations than listed on the Axiom site?


4) I'm also uncertain about the amp. I'd prefer an integrated amp but mostly want something that is sonically good and future friendly, will handle DVD-audio and SACD formats (even though I'm not entirely sure what they are) and all those Dolby and DTS formats. Any particular products that stand out / match well with Axiom speakers?

My Budget:

-For speakers I'm willing to stretch for the M80 system if the ratio of cost/sound quality is justifiable. Purchasing my last stereo system some 15 yrs ago as a student I made the decision to buy the amp I wanted and to later upgrade the speakers, which of course never happened. I always regretted this, so this time I want to make the speakers the strongest part of the system.

-For the amp I'm thinking around 1k.

Thanks very much in advance for the help!

El

Seems like theres 5 of these type posts a week try searching the forums please. Nobody wants to repeat themselves a hundred times over. i know for a fact you will find the awnsers to some of those questions in older posts.

Hi Eldwynn

I have an HT system in my office which is a bit larger than the room you're talking about, but comparable. I have 4 M22 like speakers, twin subs and an Axiom made Merak MC6H center channel speaker. These speakers fill the room with incredibly full and beautiful sound. I think M80s or M60s would be too much. BTW where're the front and center channel speakers going to be in your room - on the narrow or wide wall?

In any case, I'd go with M22s rather than the towers for your room. Believe me, you'll love them!

OK my appologies, I have been searching all evening but really couldn't figure out any real consensus for most of these.

Thanks anyways.

El

Thanks for the reply 2X6spds.

The front would be the 11'W figure and I'd likely be sitting at the 10'->12' mark.

Much appreciated, El

Welcome aboard Eldwynn

BTW, as to amps, I picked up 3 Onkyo M282 2x120 watt amps and use a Sony STRDB1070 as a processor. ubid.com has been auctioning 282's for about $100 each, manufacturer refurbished. I'd grab 3 of these and save yourself some money. They sound terrific!!

Also, if you're going to hang out here, don't bother asking about cables or speaker wires. The combative consensus is that you're wasting your money if you use anything better than string.

Hey, you're misrepresenting the combative consensus. It's TWINE, not string.

Eldwynn, you're certainly correct now in wanting to give primary emphasis to the speakers. Assuming that a reasonable minimum quality standard is met, the other components will have little or no effect on the sound. I can assure you that the M22s will be more than adequate in your size room, especially with a sub handling the low bass. As to the possibility of a larger room in the future, I don't know that anyone can say much more than that it's your choice how to spend the money available now. Presumably if you buy more main speaker than you really need now you'll have less to spend on the other speakers.

My suggestion, in addition to the M22s plus sub would be a vertical M2 center and QS8 surrounds. As to amplification, you wouldn't want to buy simply a stereo integrated amp, if thats what you meant, since you'll need the full capabilities of a five to seven channel HT receiver. Give strong consideration to the receivers having automatic room and speaker equalization, such as the Pioneer 53TX or 55TXi and the Yamaha 2400.

I agree with JohnK about the sub, QS8s and M2s. I'd recommend separate 2 channel amps (if you can get 3 M282s with 2x120 watts for about $100 each you'd be smilin large) and a used processor like a Rotel which you can get for a pretty good price on ebay or your local classifieds. Won't have auto speaker equalization, but you can do that with a Radio Shack analog SPL meter, and I'd guess this set up would sound much, much better than a Pioneer or Yamaha receiver. JMO

SACD and DVD-A are high resolution audio formats that can take advantage of 5.1 speaker setups (although many SACDs are in stereo only). Initially, there was a Beta/VHS-format war, but now universal players are available that play both (as well as CDs, CDRs, and DVDs), so there is no real reason to choose one over the other--particularly since a given release will typically be in only one of the two formats, not both. They sound great and cost pretty much the same as a regular CD. Basically, they pick up where quadrophonic vinyl left off in the 1970s.

If you want to maximize the odds that your amp will be able to handle the next generation of SACD/DVD-A players, try to get one with a FireWire port. At the moment, for proprietary reasons, most SACD and DVD-A players have their own internal DACs and send out 6-channel analog signals to the receiver. In other words, they do not send out a digital signal as ordinary DVDs and CDs do. This is likely to change, as already there are a few high-end player/receiver pairs (both must come from the same manufacturer) that allow digital output of SACD/DVD-A to the receiver via a FireWire link. My guess (and it is no more than that) is that this is the thin end of the wedge, leading to the emergence of a FireWire standard that will allow consumers to digitally link universal players and receivers made by different manufacturers, at a much lower cost. If your receiver has a FireWire port, you will be able to capitalize on this development, should it occur.

In the meantime, most of us have gone the 6-channel-analog-out route. You can spend anywhere from $170 to well over $1000 for a universal player at the moment. I went cheap in the hope of upgrading in the next few years to a digital-out player, but depending on your budget you may wish to spend more. The Pioneer 563A is the cheap option; Denon is a good source for more expensive players.

Well it seems that DVD-A and SACD have been very well explained, I guess that leaves me with the fun part of suggesting some gear.

If you want to go the all-in-one receiver route, here's a suggestion:

Axiom M60ti mains $800
Axiom VP150 center $315
Axiom QS8 surrounds $470
Hsu VTF-3 subwoofer $850
Pioneer VSX-43TX receiver $553 (crazy eddies)
Pioneer DV-47Ai cd/dvd/sacd $571 (crazy eddies)

Both those Pioneer pieces have a $1200 retail price, so those are some real bargains. The reciever includes the much praised auto EQ feature. The player does every format you can imagine.

Going with separates:

Axiom M60ti mains $800
Axiom VP150 center $315
Axiom QS8 surrounds $470
Hsu VTF-3 subwoofer $850
Rotel RSP-1066 processor $1000 (audiogon.com)
Rotel RMB-1075 120x5 amp $800 (audiogon.com)
Denon DVD-2900 cd/dvd $1000 (you can find it cheaper)

I personally have this Rotel setup (sans the Denon). It's wonderful!

The Rotel pieces are readily available on www.audiogon.com Rotel recently released a new flagship processor (the 1098) and many audiophiles have been making the upgrade, so lots of 1066's are available on the used market now. The Denon 2900 is another universal player that's garnered tons of praise. The Pioneer would work just fine with the Rotel, the only reason I mentioned it was to let you know there are numerous universal players available. The Denon 2900 is bar far the most popular. (and it's going to be available in silver now!)

The choice of the M60ti speakers is assuming your sitting postion will be at least 10' back. If you're going to be closer, you may want to think about the M22ti's.

Thanks for all the recommendations folks this is very helpful!

So as I understand it DVDA, SCAD, only support 5.1 speaker layout?

Is the 6.1,7.1,8.1 only used for DVD-Video?

I ask since I'm wondering about the advantages of more surround speakers like a 6,7,8.1 layout and if I'd really use it given it seems most movies are 5.1?

Thanks, EL

I HIGHLY recommend that you start off with 5.1.

I was running a 5.1 setup with some Polk LS f/x di-pole surrounds. I was never all that terribly impressed with 5.1. So I bought a second amp (Rotel RB-1070) and then purchased some QS8 surrounds to replace the Polks, and also a pair of M2i's to throw in the rear for 7.1.

I've got to tell you, the QS8's are so good, I truly feel I could have stuck with 5.1, and saved myself the expense of the second amp and rear speakers.

So...try 5.1 with the QS8's first. If you still feel you need some more sound behind you, then grab some speakers for the rear.

Crazy Eddie has a horrible reseller rating. >Lots of complaints for the same reasons.

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Also, if you're going to hang out here, don't bother asking about cables or speaker wires. The combative consensus is that you're wasting your money if you use anything better than string.

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Now, now 2X6spds! I don't think "everyone" is combative about wire. I for one enjoy hearing everyone's opinions (and I try to keep an open mind) even if I don't agree with them. It makes for a more interesting board.

And btw Eldwynn, wheather you buy expensive wire or inexpensive wire make sure they are well made.

P.S. "string" now thats pretty funny.

The 43TX doesn't have auto EQ and isn't otherwise notable. I wouldn't include it in my list.

www.etronics.com has the Pioneer uni-player for $608, they've also got the VSX-43tx for $485. I believe they've got a pretty good rep.

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The 43TX doesn't have auto EQ and isn't otherwise notable. I wouldn't include it in my list.

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Hmmm, it said it did in the product description.

ahh...just looked again. Tricky wording. It has "Manual MCCAC (Multi-Channel Acoustic Calibration Circuit) coaches you through fine-tuning your system to your listening room's environment-until the receiver and your speakers are perfectly aligned."

Sounds like the same thing, only you have to make the adjustments yourself rather than the entire process being automated. ???

I have a 43TX and I absolutely love it. The description of the MCCAC is exactly correct. The 43TX does not have a built in microphone (like the 45TX), or an external micrrophone (like the 53TX) to automatically calibrate your speaker levels. You need an SPL meter (or your ear, I suppose) and you adjust the levels manually, but it works quite well. And yes, it generates various tones and between pairs of speakers at a time, and you fine tune the levels at each point.

Thanks for the advice on cables! This will certainly help save some $'s. Any tips on what to look for in determining a quality, well made cable?

O.K. so the general consensus is M22's plus a good sub or M60 and sub provided the room is large enough with a minimum 10’ separation. Can anyone familiar with both the M22 and M60 comment on their differences other than the M60's obvious improved lower end. Do the M60's have the same clarity, detail, timbre in the mids and highs as the M22’s are famous for, or are the M22's clearly better in this range?

Thanks, El

I've owned both the M22's and the M60's.

They have the same amazing clarity. The M60's have a fuller, larger, more three dimensional soundstage. They can also play louder without a hint of strain. And of course their low end is much better.

If you can't be more than 10' back, or don't intend to really crank the sound (85db+) then the M22's with a good sub will work just fine.

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provided the room is large enough with a minimum 10’ separation.

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Some HT gurus recommend that the main speakers be no more that 3' from the video display. And if they are too far apart for 2 ch only, you will create a hole in the center of the soundstage.

How far apart they are kind of depends on how far away from them you are as well. If you're sitting 15' back, having them 10-15' apart is probably ok. Isn't the goal to have a equalateral triangle between the two main channels and yourself?

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Isn't the goal to have a equalateral triangle between the two main channels and yourself?

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Yes, I know this holds true for stereo but the article I read (I'll try to dig it up, I think it was titled something like: the ten most common mistakes in seting up your HT) on home theater stated something like: the mains shouldn't be more that 3' away from the video display because it would undermine the seamlessness between the center and the mains (paraphrasing of course). I don't know that I agree with it but thats what the author says. I actually have my mains about 9' apart (for HT) and I sit about 10' away. The mains are about 4' from the center speaker/display.

I do know that if you place the mains too far apart in a stereo setup it doesn't sound right. For stereo, I place my Maggies according to the equilateral triangle axiom.

I would think that the seamlessness (or lack thereof) has more to do with the quality of the speakers than their distance from the screen.

That doesn't make any sense...

In stereo you have no center channel. So having the speakers too far apart would cause a hole, but in HT you have a center channel, which would seem to make the distance between your mains less critical.

No? Am I missing something?

You are preachin' to the choir here my friend. I'll try to find the article and get the full scoop on just what his reasoning is.

Im confused about using the M60 and M80 in a smaller room. When I use the Axiom Home Theatre Wizard it always recommends the M80 for my small room with a smaller sub EP175. Yet everyone hear is recommending the M22. It is that in a smaller room the M22 are just as good as the M60 or M80 and that these larger speakers just wont make much difference in a smaller room. Or are all of you saying that the M60 and M80 would actually sound worse than the M22 in a smaller room.

Thanks John

I don't think the M80's would sound worse, but all the added benefits of the M80's would be wasted in a small room. Why pay that much more, if you won't gain all the benefits?

This is from the article that I mentioned earlier. It is by Russ Herschelmann in his Home Theater Architect column. The article is entitled The Top Eight Home Theater Mistakes.

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TVs in corners, surrounds against the back wall or front speakers placed 3 or more feet from the screen are all rookie mistakes.

Further on in the paragraph he says:

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Front speakers placed too far away from the screen disconect the sound from the picture, breaking the delicate balance that makes us feel part of the movie

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There is no further elaboration on this subject in this particular article.

I'm thinking that if they are placed too close to the screen/center speaker, you would loose some of the openness and spaciousness (especially in a large room) that you would expect from a movie.

Does he make any mention of the center channel? Without him explaining further, I'd say he's full of poop.

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Without him explaining further, I'd say he's full of poop.

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Hahaha! I with ya on this one.

He makes no mention of the center but I'm sure he's talking HT here. And reading his articles, I get the impression that he is writing for rich folk because of some of the things he recommends such as spending a couple of thousand on having someone calibrate your room.

I'd like to thank all those who offered their "sound" advice and recommends. You've all got an excellent forum here and have all very helpful.

Thanks a bunch folks, El.

You're welcome!