Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater First Impressions: DTS Master/TrueHD & 7.1 Setup

As of 6pm CST, I have 7.1 surround sound via analog outputs on a new Panasonic 55k Blu Ray player.

Here are my first impressions:
*** Can you notice a difference between DTS Master/TrueHD vs. the higher bit rate Dolby Digital/DTS ? Absolutely, positively yes. The frequency range is much wider, the bass much tighter and the surrounds are more active. I did have to crank up the speaker levels +5dbs but that was it. Previously, I had been using a PS3 w/ an optical cable.

*** Can 7.1 work w/ your couch only 18" off the back wall? Yes. It sounds great. Just have the distance and delay set properly on the receiver. Listened to "3:10 to Yuma" and 7.1 certainly adds an great enhancement to the rear sound field.

*** Did my wife come in mad because she could hear Opitmus Prime and Megatron battling way out in the driveway? YES !!!!!

My set-up:
2x M22
4x QS8
1x EP500
1x VP150
Yamaha Rx-V659
Panasonic 55k Blu Ray

Nice to hear you're getting enjoyment out of your system and are finding the new gear worthwhile. My couch is currently only ~2' off the rear wall, too, so if I get some benefit from the two QS8s I have on order, that's great. I was really buying them in anticipation of when I have my system in the basement.

Just goes to show how even the "smaller" Axioms (bookshelves), with the sub of course, are pretty darn impressive!

Now, if I could get 7.1 working with my couch about 10" from the back wall, then I'd have to get some more QS8's!!!!

Well I'm confused, just when I thought I was getting a handle on all of this.

I don't understand why you connect through analog? How can it be True HD if its running from analog outputs?

Wouldn't you be better off connecting via HDMI or Toslink?

His player decodes the new audio formats and can send them via analog. Toslink isn't an option for the new formats. His receiver doesn't have HDMI, so I'm guessing that's why he got the player he got.

I will have to find something to read up on, How can it be digital if its sent in analog? Or is it straight analog to each speaker, passed through the amp?

Sorry if I seem a little dumb but I am just ryijng to understand how its done.

Oh, it's not digital. All signals have to become analog at some point. In this case it just happens one step before. If it was sent digital to the receiver, the receiver would be the one converting it to analog.

And no, you don't seem dumb at all. There's too much to know in this hobby, as I'm a very good example of. I have to ask for help quite a lot.

treyp, good to hear your enjoying your speakers.

Not dumb at all. This whole thing can be really confusing.

All the audio information on a Blu-ray disc, all those little digital ones and zeros, must be decoded into analog information at some point before the info reaches your speakers. This operation is performed by a DAC (Digital to Analog Converter). It doesn't really matter where, between the disc and the speakers, that decoding takes place. The digital info can remain digital and be sent the receiver/preamplifier in digital form, where it is then decoded, or the DVD player can do the decoding and send the info to the receiver in analog form.

Blu-ray digital audio info, for whatever reason (I'm not tech oriented enough to understand why, but I think it's got to do with the size/amount of info that needs to be sent) cannot be sent from player to receiver via an optical or coaxial connection. It must be sent via HDMI. If you have an older receiver which doesn't have HDMI inputs, in order to enjoy the newer audio formats found on a Blu-ray disc, you must have a player that is capable of doing the digital to analog conversion and which has analog multichannel outputs. Plus, your receiver must have analog multichannel inputs.

I have to laugh at the "older receiver" thing. My receiver is somewhere between 2 and 3 years old and, though usable, is now obsolete. I used the first receiver I ever owned for 30 years.

I hear 'ya!

I had always thought of the speakers first, and receiver second, as being somewhat obsolete-proof. I have receivers and integrated amps from 30 years ago spread throughout the house; never felt the need to replace them.

I bought my Denon 3805 4 years ago and am currently looking at replacing it. I really thought that by buying a pretty good one it would last me longer than this! At this rate, I have to plan $250 year on a receiver "cost" and plan on replacing it after four years as if it was a computer...... sigh...I guess it kinda is....(!)

I am still very impressed w/ my "old" Yamaha 659. The new Panasonic BluRay w/ the 7.1 analog outs is great option.

I can live w/out an HDMI receiver for quite a while.

Unfortunately, if I got a Blu-Ray player with "analog outs" to use with my old receiver, I'd lose the availability of the "analog ins" on my current receiver that are hosting my SACD and DVD-A player. i.e., if I don't get a new receiver, I lose the ability to play multi-channel discs until I do get that receiver.... and I just don't want to lose out on a sizable and important part of my music collection...

I'm having the same problem, Mark. It's either Blu-ray OR SACD. Can't have both. Well...........unless you're willing to swap multichannel connections all the time (PITA). I've opted to go with the Blu-ray for now and not being able to listen to my Diana Krall SACDs is KILLING ME.

Regrettably, a new receiver is NOT in the cards (translation = wallet) right now.

Here 'ya go, jack. Hate to see you suffer! Just don't tell Elvis!








Consider the thread officially hijacked!!

I was under the impression that the HDMI requirement for HD audio relates primarily to digital rights management rather than bandwidth, but I could be wrong.

Nice pics. But they just lack that "Johnson Studio Portrait" magic.

It looks like the Oppo BDP 83 Blu-Ray player will solve the problem when it arrives on the scene, what looks like, early in 09. We know now it WILL have at least SACD capability if not DVD Audio as well with all internal decoding over the 7.1 analog outs.

What was the rumored price on the Oppo? I wonder if it's worth holding out for....

Its just a new version of an old game called The Company Store.

Thanks for explaining it. Now I know a little more I always thought it was digital to the speakers.

Hi Tom,

Of course digital rights management is an important aspect, but in fact it's the bandwidth limitation of an optical or coaxial digital connection that prevents lossless multi-channel transmission of six channels or more.

Despite their excellent sound quality, lossy codecs like Dolby Digital 5.1 and dts are very lossy. Both throw away huge amounts of digital data in order to carry six discrete channels of digital audio. I'd have to look it up but if memory serves, I believe the data reduction is on the order of 6:1. It's a tribute to just how sophisticated perceptual coding can be when it's well done.

Regards,
Alan

Well now, that alone would probably explain why good SACD and DVD-A/MLP recordings sound as good as they do.

Thanks for that info.

Ok so for the record, the sound we hear out of a top of the line system is analog, but the picture we see on todays TV's is digital... right?

You got it, Micah.

Thank you, Alan.

Hi Kruncher,

While lossless audio systems and ever-higher sampling rates and word lengths (24-bit vs. 16-bit) are laudable, there is a good deal of scientific evidence that suggests that it is not those factors, but rather the extra care taken in the recording process--more careful choice of microphones, monitoring of overload, careful mike placement, etc--that is largely responsible for the improved sound quality heard from many DVD-A, SACD, True HD, Master Audio and similar recordings.

And you have to make certain you compare apples with apples. Dolby Digital stereo vs. SACD stereo or DVD-A stereo. Multi-channel music, properly done, always sounds superior to two-channel stereo, whether through a lossy or lossless processor, except for the occasional solo instrument, like a guitar.

One recent test conducted with hundreds of listeners and presented to the Audio Engineering Society used standard Red Book CD standard (44.1 kHz sampling, 16-bit recording) as a "filter" through which passed much higher resolution DVD-A and SACD signals. The listeners could not detect any difference in the high-res DVD-A or SACD signals heard in their original form vs. the same signals passed through a CD "filter". In other words, the CD standard did in no way taint or degrade the sound quality of the original hi-res 96 kHz 24-bit signals. (This isn't a comparison of lossy vs. lossless codecs.)

Regards,

Alan

As always Alan, another well thought out and informative message. Much appreciated.

So the long held "axiom" in the computing world - Garbage In, Garbage Out - is meaningful as well in the audio realm.

I recall reading that the costs of setting up a hi-rez audio studio were significant, and contributed to the retail prices of the products, but clearly there's an additional labour cost element as well. A job worth doing is worth doing well, as it were.

You're very welcome. In a conventional receiver, the digital has to be converted to analog before it is sent to a separate amplifier or the amplifier section of a receiver. The amplifier makes the analog signal loud enough to be sent to the speakers. But, what about a digital receiver? Sigh. It's all so confusing.

One option for those of you with limited analog IN is to use a A/B switcher. I used stuff from Zektor for a while and really liked their gear.

But Zektor is like 20% of a new AVR so.....

Hey! My power amp IS digital!

Well, is it amplifying a digital signal, or is is digitally amplifying an analog signal? (what the heck did I just ask?

I think it just means it counts watts on its fingers.

LOL! Now I should've known that.

Mark, the rumored price for the Oppo is around $700.

Cheers

If it is, they are going to price themselves right out of the market. That's unfortunate.

Not necessarily. Denon and Marantz still manage to sell players at their obscene prices.

I think I'll stick with the Pannies and Holiday Specials.

If it were just the player, maybe I'd spend a little more for that "pride of ownership", but considering I'll have to get a new receiver also...

That's where I'm heading. Hoping for a sale on the Panasonic DMP-BD55.

+1.

I've been holding out on a BR purchase because I was very interested in Oppo's long-rumored all-in-one player (BR+DVD+SACD). $700 is a lot. I'd rather spend less money and buy a PS3 and a DV-980H.

Denon, Marantz, etc may get away with selling very expensive players, but Oppo does not have the brand recognition that they do.

But there is a huge difference.
1) Brand name recognition
2) More importantly, resellers and custom installers who can push these boxes onto customers who "don't care about the detail". ie "build me a system...." customers.

$700 is just way to expensive for an Oppo BD player (IMHO)

Braggart!

I wonder... will we ever see digital speakers?

We might, but only if they come up with digital to analog converters for our ears, as well.

Keep your fingers out of your ears! That beats room accoustics.

Perhaps slipping a fish in our ear cannal would do the trick (i.e... 'Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy').

I believe Meridian was at least marketing some speakers as digital several years ago. I suspect that means that they had d/a converters and were active speakers.