Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater No M80's for me

What a bummer, I can't get the M80's, I sent an email to Brent and he advised that my Yamaha 661 is not good enough to run them. He said that the power supply in the yammie is not the best and it would over heat and shut down.

But, it's not all bad news I bought the EP500 instead.

I wanted to get a new receiver early in the new year anyway, this will give me a better excuse for the wife

Congrats on the EP500 . A good subwoofer is a huge upgrade . Enjoy the sounds of accurate bass!

Thanks Doc

Maybe I should play mine louder in the meantime to make up for it.

Hate to disagree with Brent, but I am sure I have read somewhere that somebody is running the 661 with M80s with no troubles, it just depends on how loud you want it to go, I am quite sure that for most listening levels the 661 would work fine.

Anyway Congrats on the new purchase!!.

Congrats on the EP500 purchase.

I hear this happens when they're underpowered... http://www.geekologie.com/2008/12/dont_stand_too_close_the_cucko.php

Most any receiver will work with 80's, the question is to what volume you push it before it protects itself.

Just add two Outlaw monoblocks for the front channels if necessary!

Graeme, the reply that you got from Axiom on that point is absurd.

I agree with Johnk. If you look up the review of the 661 on audioholics.com, you will see that the 661 is a beefy 100w receiver delivering more than its stated power on a continuous basis.

When I was at Axiom, I had a chance to talk to Tom Cumberland about receivers. He told me that Yamaha (consumer side) tends to do a complete redesign of its amps with each new series, so it is hit and miss as to how good the amp section is. Denon, in contrast, tends to be more typically Japanese and makes incremental improvements to its amps with each new rev., so you have a great deal of consistancy.

Short answer, Brett has his heart in the right place, but is wrong on this particular Yamaha.

Sure, Fred; and an additional lab test on the 661 with comments is available from Sound&Vision . The report(note, 2 pages)indicates ample real-world power, including at 4 ohms, although certainly it and other similar receivers wouldn't be up to the over 1000 watt torture tests that Axiom ran on the M80s.

Well now I am a little p**sed to say the least, if in fact the Yamaha is ok to run the M80's I would have much preferred them first rather than the EP500.

As some of you pointed out in my other thread, speakers can make a big difference and the fact that they produce good base. I may have not even needed to get the EP500 at this point in time, I could have used the money and bought my receiver earlier.

Even if I wanted to swap them it would be too late for xmas

I thought we had already had you convinced to get the M80s awhile back, inspite of the Yamaha.

Too late already? Maybe a quick phone call could do the trick? You just purchased the 500, what, 2 days ago.

I thought so too.

Hi GraemeL,

All of us here at Axiom prefer to err on the side of caution in advising customers which brands of AV receivers will consistently work well with the 4-ohm M80s. The problem that has shown up consistently from customer experience with brands like Yamaha, Onkyo, and some Pioneers is that these brands will tend to prematurely shut down or go into severe current limiting when driving the 4-ohm M80s. The Denons, Sherwood Newcastles, Harman/Kardons, NADs, Rotels and a few others do not do this.

We can't possibly test all AV receivers with the 4-ohm M80s, but we have accumulated enough evidence from customers and in-house testing to suggest that certain brands may be problematic with low-impedance loads. So rather than risk disappointed customers, we simply recommend the brands we know work flawlessly driving the M80s to very loud levels without current limiting or shut-down.

As to Sound&Vision tests, you have to read the very fine print on the tests into 4-ohm loads. Some Onkyos have shown a consistent pattern of going into current limiting with 4-ohm loads, which reduces the power output dramatically. And you cannot rely on a test with one channel driven at a single frequency (1 kHz), the "standard" often quoted in some manufacturer's specifications.

Yes, your Yamaha may drive the 4-ohm M80s at reduced power output. But I'd rather you get a brand of AV receiver that we know will not give you any problems. That is what I advise Brent and the other audio experts at Axiom to tell customers.

Regards,

Alan

Hi,

Among AV receiver brands I do NOT recommend for the 4-ohm M80s, I forgot to include Sony.

And in recommended brands, I overlooked Outlaw Audio.

To follow up on reading the fine print in Sound&Vision tests, here are the results for the Yamaha 661:

Output at clipping (1 kHz into 8/4 ohms)
1 channel driven: 151/224 watts* (21.8/23.5 dBW)*
5 channels driven (8 ohms): 56 watts (17.5 dBW)
6 channels driven (8 ohms): 53 watts (17.2 dBW)
Distortion at 1 watt (THD+N, 1 kHz)

Note that the measurement is with one channel driven into 4 ohms and at a single frequency-- 1 kHz.

No measurement is stated for 5 channels driven, except at 8 ohms. The reason is that the Yamaha won't do it when you connect a pair of 4-ohm speakers and run it in the Dolby Digital 5.1-channel surround mode. It will drive 8-ohm speakers with five channels, albeit at reduced power output, and Dan Kumin, who used to write and review for me when I edited AV magazines, notes that in the text. And it will drive 4-ohm speakers in stereo.

Here is the asterisked comment on an Onkyo SR706 AV receiver in the 5.1-channel Dolby Digital mode tested by Dan for Sound&Vision:

"*Approximate result; with 5 or more channels driven the receiver protected, effectively shutting down, after approximately a half-second of drive at full output."

That is why I don't recommend the Onkyos for driving the 4-ohm M80s.

Regards,
Alan

I thought we were talking about yamaha?

He is talking about Yamaha, he just added a comment about the Onkyo at the end I believe.

Even if the Yamaha did shut down how hard would it have been to buy a pro amp ( cheap and powerful ) and use it to power the M80s as was suggested.

Not hard, just more money.

It's much better than not getting what one really wants. The what ifs are a killer.

So true - The upside is that when he gets the 500 I suspect he'll be quite happy as well. That is a killer sub!

Greame you won't feel so bad when the EP500 arrives. It will blow your socks off. Literally!!!

The M80s are awesome, I'm sure, but that EP500 is also going to make you smile every time it kicks in.

The issue of handling different impedence and the concerns with some equipment handling it is one reason why I have gradually been directed towards the "separates" route. For the most part, it would seem individual multi-channel power amps give a more accurate presentation of power on "all" channels driven and they seem to be much more flexible in dealing with the impedence issues of a multitude of different speakers. I suppose if someone had the ability to spend the extra money but still had a strong desire for one of the "questionable" brands Alan talks about, perhaps using the AVR as a pre-pro with a separate multi-channel power amp would alleviate any issues?

Can someone give me the quick answer as to why the Denons, et al, are "better" in this regard than the Sonys, et al? I generally like the sound of the Denon group better, but never really knew why. I am not looking to bash any company, but is it a quality of parts issue, or just a set up issue?

Hi Casey01,

Absolutely, and we often recommend that option if a customer has an AV receiver that he wants to keep and use as a preamp-processor. Simply adding a 2-channel power amp to the left and right main channels to drive the 4-ohm M80s works very well, using the receiver's internal amplifiers to drive the other three or five channels.

Of course it costs more going that route but it will also buy you a great deal more power for the main channels than most AV receivers are able to produce when they're running in a 5.1-channel mode.

Regards,
Alan

Hi Zimm,

It's really an amplifier design issue, and an engineer would have to carefully examine the schematics of a particular AV receiver as well as bench testing it under various load conditions to determine why some AV receiver brands like Denon and Sherwood Newcastle seem to have beefier amp sections and less trigger-happy protection circuitry.

At Axiom, our chief R&D electronics engineer, Tom Cumberland, who designed amps for Macintosh, Outlaw, Harman/Kardon, Luxman and others, did indeed do that with the Denons and the Sherwood Newcastles. What we discovered (before taking on the Sherwood line) was that even the least expensive entry-level models of Sherwood and Denon would drive the 4-ohm M80s to very loud levels in our listening room without clipping or going into current limiting. Of course, if you push them past their output limits, they'll get edgy or clip.

Regards,
Alan

Thanks Alan. That is good to know.

That is a superb resume! Wow!

Hey Alan, any work on when you guys will have the SN 972.

That can be said for any amp.

Just one more reason to want an A-1400 Amp!

Well I guess that cleared things up. Thank you Allan for your input.

I have gone ahead with the EP500.

Early in the new year I will look at getting another receiver and then I will get the M80's. I just have to wait a little longer.

Thank you to everyone who replied

Well, after Alen's reply I went back to Audioholics, and it turns out that it was the 659 that was well reviewed in the power department.

I need to stop relying on my memory for these things.

If memory serves, do I need to leave it a tip?

Graeme expanding with what Wid stated earlier you really don't have to buy a new AVR to run a pair of 80s if you are satisfied with all of the processing accessories your Yamaha now provides, you might find that for less than what you can buy a capable AVR you'll be able to buy either a 2-channel amp or a pair of monoblocks to drive the 80s and let the Yamaha do all of the processing, ezpz. I run my system with an additional 2 ch amp pre-outed from my AVR and there are at least a couple of folks around these parts that do the same, there are benefits to running a system like this IMO.

Well, I certainly don't.

Rick I am getting the new receiver so I can enjoy Dolby HD etc. For once I would like to have a few bells and whistles it has been a long time coming and a great struggle to save the money(very limited income).
I am also lucky that I have a wife that understands what this means to me, even though she is quite happy listening to just a tv set.

Graeme, it's good that you'll be able to get a new receiver with the features that you want, but in the meantime, as was already said, there's no good reason to assume that the 661 wouldn't power M80s to a degree that would be satisfactory to you. You shouldn't deny yourself the speakers that you really want.

I will be getting the M80's It's just going to be a little longer than I thought. I have purchased the EP500 and am looking forward to hearing it in action. I will wait until I have the new receiver before I buy the M80's.

If it wasn't for bad luck, I wouldn't have any luck. If I went ahead and bought the M80's first, it would be just my luck that the receiver did have problems, then I would have a nice set of speakers sitting here collecting dust and me pulling my hair out (what's left anyway).

I will eventually get the things I want, but it will be the long way round.

Glad to hear that you will eventually be getting the M80's, you will not be sorry. I'm loving mine. Congrats on the EP500. I'm sure it is a great sub and will be a great compliment to your M80's when you get them.

Hello GraemeL

I am fairly certain you can achieve HD audio with the Yammy 661 since it passes audio through HDMI?

See I don't understand this pass through bit. Does that mean if I have a movie etc that has HD audio then the Samsung 1500 will decode the audio and pass it directly through the 661? If so then what setting should I use? Is that PCM?

Graeme, a little mix-up in terminology here; the 661 doesn't just "pass through" the audio on the HDMI cable to the TV, it extracts it and amplifies it to drive the separate speakers in the HT setup. Yes, the player will decode the HD audio to PCM form and send it to the 661 as such.

Thanks John, I always thought PCM was not the best setting to have.

It is when you don't have a new amp that decodes the audio from the HDMI.