Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Phantom Center Channel

I've seen this term a few times during my recent journey through internetland of speaker discussions. I can imagine what that is. What to you audioaholics think of this concept?

A phantom center is not using a true center channel and letting the avr send the center channel to the respective L or R channel as needed. Most avr's seem to do this rather well but I still find it less than satisfying the few times I have tried it, especially when listening off-axis.

That's what I figured. How does that differ from how I set my stuff up for a quick run. (I just got it) I have my receiver set to stereo to these Polk bookshelf speakers I hooked up while I research a good set of towers. Is there a different setting to get the center channel programming sent to the 2 speakers?

What's your reciever? Do you have more than just the 2 front speakers hooked up as well? Usually just using stereo mode works well enough for most as the receiver has no other way to send out the signal.

As jakewash implies using a phantom center is not ideal. I used a phantom center with my M80s for quite some time and found it worked very well. Beside the drawbacks mentioned another is that you can’t separately control the center channel’s volume without a dedicated center speaker. This is a pain in some movies where the L/R channels overpower the dialogue.

Advantages I found using a phantom center are that it simulates having three identical speakers up front so the whole front soundstage has exactly the same sonic signature. Another is that forgoing a center channel for a little while lets you put that money toward getting better L/R mains and adding the center speaker later when funds are available. However, I wouldn’t generally recommend not ever getting a center speaker it’s just to integral to HT and multi-channel music.

Bob, the previous replies have covered it pretty well. There's nothing complicated about the "phantom" effect; whenever two speakers play the same sound at the same loudness, it appears to come from midway between them(for someone sitting in the middle), as if a speaker was there. This can be heard whenever you listen to a stereo program on two speakers and something is playing that's supposed to be in the middle(e.g., often a singer, or an announcer on an FM radio program).

As mentioned, it has pluses and minuses besides saving money on a separate center speaker. The main speakers may be of higher quality than the separate center speaker would be. The center image will move to the left or right when the listener isn't in the middle, but not farther out than the speaker on that side. Also, as Dean pointed out, with a separate center speaker the level of sound that's supposed to come from the middle(e.g., most movie dialog)can be independently adjusted to make it a bit louder and easier to understand, which of course can't be done when the main speakers are handling everything.

Trying this is free, of course, and setting your HT receiver to show that the center speaker is "none" results in all center sound, even from multi-channel discs, being sent to the main speakers.

Thanks for the replys. Pretty much what I figured. Just wanted to hear that for sure.
I just bought a Denon 2309 and all I have is a set a Polk bookshelves that were in my kitchen. Would like to get the M80's (I think) and then probably surrounds, then a sub and finally a center as time goes on. Is that a good pecking order?

I think so. If you're really into action movies, it might be argued that you could switch around the sub/surrounds order, but I think since the 80s do OK with bass it would be better to get the surrounds first!

Depending how long you're drawing out this process, getting the M80s first is dangerous. You could end up hearing them powered up, then the next day ordering EVERYTHING else. :-P

The M80s are good enough in the bass dept. to for go the sub and get surrounds next.

This thread is from a month back. Funny how things have progressed.

I have been enjoying movies on my new 52" LCD and using just my Polk bookshelves (can't find the model # anywhere on these but my wife constantly tells me I can't find anything even if it's under my nose) I pay close attention to what I hear. How low the bass goes (or doesn't go) How clear the dialogue is. The dialogue happens to be rather good with these speakers. They are maybe 12-14" high and are sitting on the floor. The sound sounds like it's coming from the TV. At times causes me to wonder if a center channel speaker is really necessary. Wish I new someone with a good HT of any brand.

You do know a bunch of people with good HT's, you're just not living in the right city.

Good point!

Hey Bob

Neat question. We take it for greanted that you need a center channel speaker for a true HT. Who tells us this over and over again, the companies that stand to make the most money from selling these odd shapped things, speaker and hardware companies. We become numb, like you have to have a coffee table in a living room, why cuz you just do.

I remember back in 1999 I attended a show here in SW Ontario put on by one of the high end audio video stores. They had a key note speaker, Ian G. Masters. Now I remember reading articals from Ian since the early 80's in Sound and Vision Magazine. Like Alan Loft, his articals were always informative and intersting.

Anyways, Ian said back then that a center channel speaker was not only not required, you actually shouldn't have one. To be honest, I didn't really understand the reason why, something about the couch being too long.

You should have seen the faces of the sales rep's form the sponsering store when their key note told a large crowd they didn't need a center channel speaker. That was priceless.

For those interested to learn more about Ian Masters follow this link:

http://www.torontoaes.org/surroundview96/masters.html

Maybe Alan might have a better idea of what Ian might have been talking about back then.

For the record, I own a VP150 and use it everytime I watch a movie.

But have you compared how a movie sounds with and without it?

Nope, I never even though about trying it. But I will by the end of this weekend.

pn

If your sitting in the sweet spot or close to it, a phantom setup does a very good job. It is very similar to when your listening to 2 channel music and the vocals appear to be coming from the center speaker, perfect imaging. The problem arrises when you have say 3 seats up front or a wide couch, as you move to the left or right the whole experience goes out the window.

Just watch Toy Story. Digitally re-mastered audio and video. 12-14" Polk Audio bookshelves on the floor. TV height is now 52" to the center of the screen (with my new tv stand) The sound (to me) sounds like it's coming from the TV. I hope I hear the advantage of getting a VP150 when it gets here. (btw the speakers sisn't get here yet. Will check the door in the morning when I wake up)

Yes, I am listening / watching "Shine A Light" (Rolling Stones Concert)right now on Sat. in 5.1, and I am switching between 2ch and 5.1 mode.

You know, for music, and since the M80's have such awsome imaging, I really don't miss the center speaker, it sounds wonderful just in 2 ch. Jagger's voice is anchored right in the middle of the screen. Richard's guitar is nicely planted just to the left, unless it's a solo, then it moves to the middle.

I will have to try a movie tomorrow.

pn

Paul, if I followed what you did, let me suggest that a better test is to simply set the center speaker to "none" and then in effect you'll be playing 4.1(rather than just stereo)compared to 5.1.

Good point John. That should yield more accurate results.

pn

I should have picked that up. That is what I wanted to know.

I have run my HT in 4.1 for the past year now. First with M3's and now with M80's. Both do a wonderful job of providing what appears to be a center channel. It does waver some when I move to the sides but then I adjust the balance to equal things out and it does fine. That being said, I do plan to get a center channel soon. I think that with certain movies and programs, it is difficult to hear dialoque for whatever reason. I'm guessing that a center channel will help in these circumstances. Just thought I'd throw my 2 cents in. Carry on.

Running a phantom center offers the advantage of your center image matching your Left and Right speakers perfectly...since the sound is produced by those speakers. If you sit dead center and you're the only one in the room, it can work well. As John wrote, don't do this in stereo, but rather surround mode with the "center speaker" set to "none" on your receiver and it will perfectly divide the center channel material equally between left and right.

This works well under some circumstances, but has more disadvantages than advantages.

If you DON'T sit dead center, or there's more than one person in the room, the phantom effect won't be centered in the audio image. A center channel speaker locks that material dead center with your TV. Having a separate center channel also allows you to modify the output level in comparison to the other speakers... many here bump up the center to improve intelligibility, for instance. And matching the side speakers in tonality is not an issue if you are using three speakers across the front that are designed to b used together.

Are you saying that 4.1 is different than a stereo setting? I have my 2309 set to stereo right now as all I have is a pair of bookshelves. I would think that the center channel is split between the left and right the same as it would be in a 4.1 configuration.

If all you have is a pair of speakers, then running in stereo should be the same as 4.1.

OK, so I missuderstood Ian back in 1999, he ment if you're going to use a cheap center speaker, you shouldn't have one.

See the following article, very interesting for those wondering about a center channel speaker and if it is necessary.

http://www.hometheaterfocus.com/blogs/blog/archive/2006/05/15/100530.aspx

BTW, I tried to watch a movie this afternoon in 4.1. Ummm, na, not the desired results. Music, and concerts, sure, sounds really good. And it wasn't horrible, but I really did miss the VP150 for clarity on dialogue.

I love my VP150, please don't ever take it away from me! LOL

paul

Thanks, Paul, you just justified my purchase!

Sure, anything I can do to help.

Thanks here too. Been waiting to hear the outcome. I appreciate your effort.