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#241001 - 01/17/09 01:18 PM M3 sonic difference using Pioneer SX-850 receiver
FireGuy Offline
devotee

Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 316
Loc: Buffalo, New York
I'm seriously considering a reconfiguration of my HT to inlcude my Pioneer SX-850(circa 1977)receiver and looking for feedback as to what I can expect sonically (using my M3ti's). My current AVR is a Denon AVR-1906 and very much intrigued as to how the Pioneer will perform. Basically, this is just a quick post to see if this effort will be worth my while as this unit now sits in my son's room and he's already barking and pleading to let things alone. It's probably gonna take a good part of the day to do this task. BTW - my Pioneer is now running a pair of Sansui SX-5500X speakers (still sound excellent after all these years but lacks certainly in the midrange coherency compared to the M3ti's)...bought the same time as the receiver in Japan. So, if anyone can comment, much appreciated.
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#241003 - 01/17/09 01:23 PM Re: M3 sonic difference using Pioneer SX-850 receiver [Re: FireGuy]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13565
Loc: Iowa
DC, i think the Pioneer would sound fine with the m3's, but sonically probably no different than the Denon. Are you saying you want to use the Pioneer for HT applications? If that is the case it would lack all of the decoding for HT.

For music only (2ch) the Denon should do just as well. I recently pulled out my early 90's JVC Pro Logic receiver and it drove my 80's just fine.
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#241004 - 01/17/09 01:36 PM Re: M3 sonic difference using Pioneer SX-850 receiver [Re: SirQuack]
FireGuy Offline
devotee

Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 316
Loc: Buffalo, New York
It will be used for 2 channel listening. I was thinking the sound might be much warmer with the Pioneer and not as pristine. Looks like it's going to be good match. I love the look and build of the Pioneer and want to take advantage before someone (my son) decides to move and take it with him. I also have Pioneer PL-550 turntable that's not being used. This may now be a weekend project.
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FireGuy
M22V3/M3ti/M2V3/Omega Super 5/Aperion 5C/OutlawLFM1+Sub/Denon AVR1906/YamDVDC750/AS AMP110

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#241005 - 01/17/09 01:41 PM Re: M3 sonic difference using Pioneer SX-850 receiver [Re: FireGuy]
Wid Offline
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Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6789
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.

It should do just fine as long as she's running and sounding good. I recently had my old Fisher (from 1979) bite the dust. It was kind of hard letting it go even with it not in good working order.
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#241006 - 01/17/09 01:47 PM Re: M3 sonic difference using Pioneer SX-850 receiver [Re: Wid]
FireGuy Offline
devotee

Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 316
Loc: Buffalo, New York
It's "like new" working order. I had some minor adjustments made to it about five years ago. She's traveled from Japan, to New York, to California and now back to NY (Buffalo)...seems to have more miles than I've traveled. I remember the old Fisher's very well. Decently built and played like champs.
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M22V3/M3ti/M2V3/Omega Super 5/Aperion 5C/OutlawLFM1+Sub/Denon AVR1906/YamDVDC750/AS AMP110

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#241010 - 01/17/09 01:57 PM Re: M3 sonic difference using Pioneer SX-850 receiver [Re: FireGuy]
alan Offline

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Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 3256
Loc: Toronto/New York/parry Sound
Hi R DeVries,

Both your old Pioneer and your Denon are solid-state designs. Usually these have ruler-flat frequency response, even in the old days, so I doubt you'd hear any difference at all if you did a careful comparison, provided you didn't drive either receiver into clipping or close to it.

Those old Pioneers used huge amounts of negative feedback in the amplifier circuits to reduce THD (distortion) to 0.002% levels or less, an approach now frowned upon. The problem with the old Pioneer approach was that sometimes highly transient input signals could drive the amplifier stage into a kind of oscillation with audible distortion that sounded like nasty clipping. The phenomenon was identified by a Finnish researcher, Matti Otala, and it's called TIM (Transient Intermodulation Distortion). I was able to replicate it with a huge old Pioneer of the same vintage as yours. But it takes very high levels of transient input signals to trigger TIM.

Keep in mind too, that the tone-control circuits of those old Pioneers were never flat--i.e., they had errors that might boost the bass a bit or cause similar anomalies even when the controls were centered. When we lab-tested them the curves from the tone control circuits were never totally linear.

Regards,
Alan
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#241017 - 01/17/09 02:35 PM Re: M3 sonic difference using Pioneer SX-850 receiver [Re: alan]
FireGuy Offline
devotee

Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 316
Loc: Buffalo, New York
Thanks Alan for the "forensic" analysis. I'd pay for just a fraction your of audophile knowledge. My typical listening levels are relatively normal so I won't be driving it too hard, good advice. Need to block some time to get this puppy done. I'm sure I'll get the wife "look" as I install, clean and polish..."What are you up to now?"
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FireGuy
M22V3/M3ti/M2V3/Omega Super 5/Aperion 5C/OutlawLFM1+Sub/Denon AVR1906/YamDVDC750/AS AMP110

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#241030 - 01/17/09 03:28 PM Re: M3 sonic difference using Pioneer SX-850 receiver [Re: FireGuy]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10415
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
As NIKE says,"Just Do It", there is no substitute for checking things out first hand to know for sure how things sound and let us know your thoughts on any perceived differences if any.
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#241777 - 01/21/09 12:19 AM Re: M3 sonic difference using Pioneer SX-850 receiver [Re: jakewash]
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 3088
Loc: CA, USA
Hello Devries

I have an absolutely mint Pioneer SX850. I have run it with a pair of M3Tis, M2es, Michaura M55s, and Dahlquist DQM 905s. The Pioneer has a veiled sound quality, rolled off highs. It makes good CDs sound like MP3s.

I still have my 850 around because it is so beautiful to look at. There is a good market for silver faced beauties from the golden age of solid state receivers, but, if you can trade it for a nice tube amplifier, you'd be way ahead.
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#241925 - 01/21/09 08:58 PM Re: M3 sonic difference using Pioneer SX-850 receiver [Re: 2x6spds]
FireGuy Offline
devotee

Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 316
Loc: Buffalo, New York
Beautiful is a good way to describe the old Pioneers. They were absolutely a work of art. I got mine in the late 70's while in the US Navy (Yokuska, Japan) serving aboard the USS Midway; which is now a floating museum in San Diego, awesome to visit BTW. Also during that era Marantz, Kenwood and even Techniques had some good models. They all had a hugh sense of tangibility...which still exists to this day. Trading for new tube amp is inviting, but giving up the SX-850 will be tough to do.
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FireGuy
M22V3/M3ti/M2V3/Omega Super 5/Aperion 5C/OutlawLFM1+Sub/Denon AVR1906/YamDVDC750/AS AMP110

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