Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners EP350 or EP400?

Hey all,

Some more advice needed.

For me choosing the M80's was easy and I love them! Choosing a dedicated amp was pretty tough and many thanks to everyone here for helping me.

Now, I thought choosing an amp was tough, but man! choosing a sub is even tougher. There are so many good competitors and so many opinions.

Anyway, as I stated in my very first posting, my listening is 90% music and 10% movies. I have to replace this 12 year old JBL sub I have and I got $800.00 to do so. So my journey to find a "musical" sub begins..

So, I have eliminated SVS (I think) and HSU due to the size & color matching to my M80's. (Both have incredible reviews).

I'm for the most part ready to order the EP350. I really don't want anything larger than the EP350 (and that's pushing it) so I started seeing that for another $300.00 I could get the EP400 (excellent size wise due to the smaller build). Everything I've read about the EP400 is for the most part excellent, especially for "music only". My worry about this is my listening area is 4200 cubit feet and I'm worried the EP400 won't fill it up.

You think I should just stay with the EP350 or consider the EP400?

Also, will the EP350 give the "musicality" that the EP400 will? Is a completely sealed enclosure best for 'Music like the EP400"?
Remember, I' not concerned about watching movies and "feeling" my couch/house shake...

"side note" The really small SVS SB12-Plus looks very impressive, I wonder how it would stack up against the EP400? although I believe 4200 cu ft is too big for the SB12-Plus??

Respectfully,

Dana

From a frequency response perspective, the EP350 will be plenty of sub. Most music will not contain anything below 40Hz. Some instruments used in classical music will produce lower notes and the pipe organ will produce notes as low as 17Hz.

Given that the EP350 has a -3db point of 28Hz, that gives you coverage for most instruments out there.

I personally would go with one EP350 and see what the bass response is like in your room.

Yea Fred, I would say I'm 80% for ordering the EP350

Thanks!

Dana

The other part of my thinking is that you can save that $300 towards a second 350 if the bass response in your room is too uneven. A number of people here have ended up with two or more subs to improve in room response.

The nice thing about the 350 is it is dead simple to integrate with your mains. I do not know why that is, but I have had no issues with blending. I suppose Axiom would have designed the rolloff to fit with the bass response of the drivers used in their other speakers.

Fred,

That's certainly something to think about, for sure.

There's just so many freakin options I could even put that extra $300.00 toward the EP500...it's the same size box as the EP350 too.

I guess it's like anything, I just have to make the best choice I can...I'm sure I'll be lovin whichever one I get...

Dana

Ported, then.

If you are serious about not wanting extra thump & rumble for movies, there is no sense.

I got the EP350 as a music first sub. Didn't think sound for movies was that important. I am now finding that I enjoy movies much much more with good speakers and a sub.

You can always pick up the EP350, but make a point to watch a number of movies with good LFE during the evaluation period. If you find yourself constantly wondering what a better sub would sound like, you can still trade up to the EP500 at no penalty.

Hi Dana,

Here is another thought, and BTW, it's fun spending other peoples money. This suggestion probably won't be very popular on this forum, but it will save you a few bucks, and you might be surprised at good it is.

Go with an EP175. I had this sub before I had my EP500. It was recommended it to me by Alan Loft. I really loved the way it matched with my 80's, and gave lots of low end for music. I also believe that for music, sometimes a smaller driver is better. It can give a tighter sound, which is what you want when listening to music. It won't move as much air as a 350. But for music, that may not be as important. Your M80's are a full range speaker, and should play music quite nicely all on there own. I am guessing your not looking to shake the foundation here, just want to add a nice subtle bottom end when listing to your favorite CDs.

If I had a music only room with the M80's, my choice would be the EP175.

Food for thought.

paul

Worf, what is your room size? The OP appears to have a very large room

My room at that time was over 5000 cubic feet.

Let's be clear, I don't recommend the EP175 for movies, not at all, it bottomed out at higher volumes for movies, which is why I moved to the 500. But for critical music listening (and I am not talking about techno or RAP), I liked it much as my EP500.

Again, the M80's handle most of the sound. The EP175 just picked up that last 5% of the bottom end. The 10" driver was very very tight, and accurate.

I would seriously consider two EP175's over a single EP500 for music listening only. This was Alan's recommendation to me also when I talked to him about a music only system.

paul

Paul,

Another fine option indeed(I could purchase a center with what I saved, close anyway), but...will the EP175 fill my 4200 cu.feet space??

Dana

Paul,

Oh I just seen your post, about your 5000 cu ft...hmmm, decisions, decisions...

Dana

Remember Dana, with music, you arn't trying to simulate big dinosaurs walking in your living room like in movies.

If you don't go for the EP175, then I would go for the EP400, if you budget allows for it. I think the DSP chip and is worth the extra money and that 8" driver would be just perfect for music.

The cool thing, what ever you choose, you really can't go wrong with Axiom's subs.

paul

I think my 350's do better for music than my 600, for HT they do a fine job a well. I would say go with the 350 for that size room.

I would highly doubt there is much of a sonic difference. Have you done any blind testing to support this?

no blind tests, but I have had my 600 up front with my 350's and have gone back and forth with different music, they just seem to be more musical, tighter on the kick drum, etc... for movies the 600 goes much lower and has more explosive power.

Yeah right

Buy one of each. Then everyone is happy.

The -3db point on the M80s is 34Hz, for the EP175 its 32Hz and for the EP350 its 28Hz.

I have not found much difference between just the M80s and M80+ EP350 for a lot of the music I listen to. Where I do notice it is for Synth and pipe organ music where you have notes into the 20s.

I am not sure that the EP175 would add much noticable to your current setup. In fact, unless you listen to a lot of classical or electronic/pipe organ stuff, consider going without a sub as a possibility.

The M80s really are a capable speaker.

I just wish my Denon allowed for seperate crossover settings for each speaker, I'd most likely set the 80's to around 60hz.

Being able to adjust the different X-overs for each speaker is just one of the features I like about my H/K, and the fact that the thing has good power.

I am battling with changing my 350 order to a 500 but now it looks like I might just cancel the sub altogether.

I've definitely found a difference between M80s without and M80s with the EP350. The M80s are great, but the 350 just adds a little more to that greatness.

Ken,

Do you ever wonder or feel that you should have gone for the 500?

Given that I don't have $1200 lying around, not really, no. Also, it's Ken...

*giggle*

I know it's Ken. (See!)

Actually it's ONLY an extra $425!

I think FredK is correct here. Probably my experience with the EP175 was to be able to increase the volume or gain of lower freq. (below 60 hertz). For a little more bottom end, instead of hearing lower freq. than the M80's can deliver.

This was nice for jazz, rock, and many pop recordings that seem to be recorded poorly. It was a way to enhance the kickdrum, and electric bass in some of those recordings. I suppose increasing the bass knob on my processor might have given me similar results, without being able to control the crossover.

pn

Calvin must not be himself tonight. Who's this Ken he speaks of

We have a Ken?

Is that Calvin Klein?

Calvin is probably right. There is probably more difference there with the EP350 than I think, but I was really surprised that there was little to no difference for a number of tracks.

I may also not run my bass as hot as others.

*runs away sighing*

Between this an another thread it almost sounds like I should change my M80's to M22's and get an EP500.

Bob, I think you should probably hang tight and see how you like what you get!

Keep the 80s Bob, you will not regret it. I love my M22s and with a sub they are nearly equal to the M80s, but the M80s offer just that much more, they're worth it, IMO.

and they can handle gobbbbbbs of power.

But I'm concerned with the left speaker being too close to the wall. Are there port plugs for these speakers and what would that do to the sound?

the ports are their to allow low bass to filter into the room, you don't want to plug them.

How close is too close?

I know Hsu recommends 3 inches from port to wall.

Well,
I greatly appreciate all the help, I pulled the trigger on the EP350 today. Now for long agonizing wait...

I'm sure I'll be shocked at the difference from my old 100 watt JBL I bought at circuit city years ago.

And I'm sure I'll be back here telling everyone all about it!

Thanks again!

Dana

Congrats! Looking forward to your thoughts.

You will love it!

Ok, I got the EP350 this past Tuesday & been experimenting with it quite a bit.

I do have some questions if someone could kind enough to help me out. Now, keep in mind I have been "brainwashed" hearing my 15 year old 10" JBL sub 100wts. My first impressions are good, it sounds tight & clean and can definitely go low...with no distortion.

I kinda feel just little "underwhelmed" I guess. I can't quite pin point it. Below are my settings on my avr, so far these are the best sounding settings...

AVR:
Fronts = large
Sub out level = +1.5
Sub out = Both (fronts & subwoofer)
Xover = 120hz
Phase = normal

EP350:
Phase = normal
Xover = all the way up
Utilizing the low level line in, new 12ft coax sub cable from monoprice
Volume = 75%

I guess my main concern is "compared to my old sub" I have to turn the sub volume up so high (50% on my old sub) , is this the norm for you 350 owners? Especially seeing that my sub out volume on my avr is at +1.5 (it was at 0 on the old sub)

I have placed the 350 in the exact spot of my old sub, so I'm a little perplexed that with a much more powerful sub and a larger woofer that I have to actually turn the volume up so high to get to an even playing field with my old sub. Maybe this is normal??

Don't get me wrong I like it alot, just had to ask you all about the volume setting issues...I thought for sure I would not have to turn the volumes up as much as the my old JBL.

I kinda feel I should have went with the EP500???

Are my settings screwy? I probably should try a different placement, but again, it's in the same spot as my old JBL.

Thx,

Dana

75%?! Your house should have fallen down.

Your fronts were set to "large" with the other sub also? Have you tried "small"?

120Hz seems like a pretty high crossover

Have you done a calibration with a sound meter?

Dana did you calibrate the whole system? I am running an older 200 watt EP350 with my 80s and after calibrating the volume is about 45-50%, although I am running the 350 as a second sub to the 600 I did calibrate the 350 with the 600 powered off, I thought it sounded pretty good on it's own.

Something isn't right somewhere.

I'm sure Mr Quack will chime in since he has two them, but my experience with EP500 was that I needed nothing more than 20-30% volume, my assumption is that the 350 would be same normally. Your other settings seem fine.

Yes, tried small...tried everything I can think of...

No I haven't calibrated...I don't have a sound meter. Only calibration I can do is with the mic that comes with the yammy, I'm gonna go try that now...from what I'm hearing, something definitely is not right, Be right back, gonna calibrate with the mic...

Dana

Ok, Just ran thru the avr setup on my yammy. The bass got much lower, no bottom end. I just set it back manually.

I will tell you also when I first got it and hooked it up, it did not work at all. I was fairly frustrated & shocked. I called JC & he was freaked out as well. He told me the only thing I could do is remove the speaker and see if a wire had came off.

Sure enough, I removed the speaker and the speaker wire that goes to the back of the amp was completely off. I re connected it and all was well, it worked anyway.

It's pretty hard to believe that happened during shipping as the box was in excellent condition. But who knows...

Stranger yet, it took 2 full days before they ever shipped it, I just thought they were checking it out before shipping. I know when I ordered my M80's they went out that very same day. I told JC my concerns.

I think I'm going to have to send it back. I just turned the volume on the EP350 all the way up and that should have blasted me with bass, but nothing even close.

This has been a pretty bad experience with this sub.

Dana

This post confused me. Is the bass lower with no bottom end, or is there no bass, or is the speaker wire connected, is it not, did it take 2 days, 1 day, is it going back, is it staying?

Dana, I have a couple of questions. I finished reading the auto setup for my Yammie and for the sub it says to have the output volume set to halfway or less and the crossover frequency set to maximum. Did you do this? If you did, sorry. But I agree with the others here that the sub should be blasting pretty good.
Mel N.

Yes, Followed the instructions exactly.

Dana

Dana:
It IS beginning to sound like there's a defect, but try one thing before packing it all up: Just hook up a DVD player straight into it's RCA composite connections and play a CD to see if you get bass. Ensure that the crossover is as high as it can go and (if there is one), the bypass...er...isn't.

Bypassing everything else will let you know for sure.

Yea Mark,

The telling tale was I just re connected the old 100wt JBL and the JBL walked all over this 350.

I just called JC and explained things to him, he remembered the thing didn't even work when I first hooked it up. He's going to send me another one and swap this one out.

It almost sounds to me like the amp is defective or the crossover is shot...something is not right and JC agreed. Hopefully, the replacement will work correctly.

Oh well, at least the customer service is excellent. I'm sure I won't get 2 defective 350's in a row (I hope).

Talk to you all when the replacement comes...

Dana

Good luck with the replacement. It's always frustrating when a new toy doesn't work like it should.

I will just add I don't like the way the Yamaha set things up, the avr XO is at 120? Way too high to me, especially if the mains get set to large as well. When you get the next one, set the mains to small and the avr crossover to 80 and adjust the calibration by ear if you have to, then try the Yamaha set up to see what it does to the system.

Jake,

I did exactly that, manually, when the xo is set to 80, I actually had to turn the volume to MAX on the ep350 to get decent bottom end. I get more bottom the higher I set my xo, but the volume just isn't there. If I start to crank the avr volume to louder levels (certainly no where near extreme) the mids and highs start to overpower the EP350. When I reconnect the old JBL and got the bottom end back, then I knew something was wrong with the EP350. No way this cheap JBL should be outperforming a 350.


Dana

Dana the bright side to this is that you should be pleasantly surprised whenever the new 350 replacement comes in, which, will be very quick hopefully.

Sorry to hear about your misfortune with the problematic sub from Axiom, as a long time owner and forum member I can only tell you from what I've seen historically these types of issues do not happen very often and when they do Axiom has always bent over backwards to resolve.

Keep us posted whenever the new sub arrives.

I to was considering the EP350 BECAUSE Im ready to upgrade my veledyne dps 10 but......... im a little concerned now. Why is it everytime I Find a sub that sparks my interest and THen I see something that turns me away. I was interested in the AVS MFW 15 to because of its reviews on performance and it really shined and then I started reading about so many amp failures.Now Im really confused ??? Maybe A SVS PB12 NSD ???

I understand your concern but I do believe you are comparing apples and oranges. This is the only complaint I seen on any sud from Axiom. (and I'll leave it at that because I don't need another war commenting about another product at another site)

I'M AN IDIOT!!!

I am so embarrassed, there was NOTHING wrong with my EP350 sub! It was me the whole time. What I was experiencing was "cancellation" with the low frequencies.

Friday, I just kept thinking there was no way this was happening to me (lack of bottom end w/350). I kept moving my 350 around the room and couldn't get any low end, even in the same place as my old JBL, still no low end.

I NEVER thought to re position my M80's. Well, that did the trick. I moved my M80's about 2 feet toward the back wall and about 1 foot closer together. Now of course the EP350 is dominating the room, I had to turn the volume down and set the crossover down to 80hz.

I'm not sure why the JBL didn't get effected this way, could be it's smaller and the woofer is so close to the floor. So anyway, I called JC back and told him, that's when he told me I was experiencing "low freq. cancellation".

I would go on and tell you all how awesome the EP350 sounds, but man, I am certainly humbled and embarrassed. I don't know why I didn't think to move the M80's. I guess I'm just not used to having quality speakers. I had no idea about "cancellation".

I'm gonna go cower and runaway ashamed now

Dana

Factor,

Read my post above! You can see it wasn't the EP350! It was me. That's why they call people like me "newbie"

Dana

That's very good news Dana, no need to feel like an idiot, trust me, we've all been there and done that at one time or another! Don't know that I would have ever thought to move the 80s either, 'low frequency cancellation' is a new one on me. Out of curiosity, where did you have the sub located in the room?

Thanks for swallowing a little pride and letting us know, Dana. Your adventure can only help other noobs (like me). Sounds like a very easy mistake to make and an easy solution, no need for embarrasment,

Rick,

I originally had it in the right corner of the room (same as the JBL) but when I couldn't hear the low end very well, I moved it everywhere, no luck. My M80's were originally about 10 feet apart and about 4 feet from the back wall. Now the M80's are about 7 or 8 feet apart and pushed back toward the wall. I have kinda of a large open room (runs into the dining and kitchen (open floor plan). I think the M80's were too much toward the "center" of the room.

All I know now, this sub is outstanding, what a difference "placement" can make. I sure learned a lesson, hard one at that. I'm just glad JC was able to stop shipment of the replacement. Axiom's customer service is second to none, even to noobs like me...

I would have felt allot worse had Axiom wasted their time and money sending me a replacement 350 that I didn't even need.

Dana

Good to hear Dana. I was surprised when I heard your news because I have my EP500s set at maybe 30% volume, and they are nice and strong.

Yea, it was funny when I figured it all out. I was standing there with a big smile on my face listening to my EP350 blasting me with bass. Then I thought...D*mn! I have to call JC @axiom right away...then I thought...Holy ****! I have to go on the forums and tell everyone I'm an idiot!

LOL...oh well...it's all good now * I'm lovin the 350.

Dana

Well, I don't know about any of you but I am certainly confused!

I have only 1 place to place my M80's. It sounds like to me that the bass you are now hearing is from the ports out of the back of the M80's now that they are closer to the walls. I understand sub placement having an effect because it picks up the walls and floor differently in different places. Seems to me a 300 watt ported sub should be heard WELL even if the mains are placed on your head.

I'm NOT convinced!

Bob, I thought the same as you. But since I have Google'd subwoofer placement and watched axiom video on subwoofer placement, seems to me (although, I'm proof I don't know alot) that speaker placement is absolutely critical.

Also Bob, since you're a PA guy, I did find this article by Peavey,

http://www.peavey.com/support/technotes/soundsystems/boundarycancellation.cfm

Dana:
While 'm glad that everything is working right, I'm surprised that the m80s would have enough output to cancel out your sub. In fact, moving the M80s closer to the wall would reinforce their bass, and theoretically cancel out more from the sub.

Did you ever play with the phase control on the 350 (because this is the type of situation that warrants that control)? It changes the "phase" of the sub output so it matches the other speakers. You don't, in effect, want one woofer "pushing out" while one next to it is "pulling in" because the sound wave created by either is inverse to the other and will cause cancellation. This is also why you want to make sure your speakers are wired correctly in terms of your "pluses and minuses".

Since I had so much fun creating the wiring diagram last week, this week I've made a "Phase Diagram":



(This may have been more than you needed to know, or too basic for you, but now I can copy and paste the text and graphic the next time someone has a question on the topic!

That's a great article and confirms what I stated. Placement of the "Sub" can be critical. Not the mains. Being involved with PA (somewhat) I have been in discussions of low frequency cancellation. That can happen with 2 subs and is a good reason NOT to have a system set to "large" where the mains are carrying the same frequencies as the sub. It is the very reason why you should be setting your system to "small" when using a sub.

A question that constantly comes up on the PA form I visit is when using a double 15" with a horn cab. The bottom 15" is considered a "quasi sub" that extends lower than the upper woofer yet no where what a real sub will produce. Now these folks want to place a sub underneath this speaker to get real bottom. There is way too much overlapping frequencies with this arrangement and usually gives a muddy low end rather than the big bottom that they are expecting using "extra bottom". This also goes along with the "small" settings in HT. There is also complaints of phase cancelling where ther is loss of bottom. But this cancelling happens more with 2 subs than with anything else.

If you had your system properly set-up with the small setting than you should have heard your sub no matter where it was placed and it should have been loud. My understanding of sub plcement in HT is more for smoothness and level frequency throughout the room (boominess). I still can't see the mains placement having anything to do with the loudness of the sub.

But I really am not that knowledgeable in any of this.

Nice diagram, Mark. Sometimes it's easier for us noobs to understand with straightforward drawings without so much of the technical "jargon".

Mark,

I did change the phase on the 350 several times and checked my wiring as well. I don't know for sure, but when I was having these issues, and I look back on it now, I see that the M80's are closer to the back wall and kinda more "in line" with the 350. Where as before, the M80's were either way in front of the 350, and due to the forward location of the M80's the sub was in line with the 350, but all away from the back wall. If that makes sense. It's hard to describe without posting a layout of my room with the before and after speaker locations.

Dana

If you're talking about co locating (stacking) two subs they will not cancel each other out. They will in fact have more output in this configuration.

If you have a SPL meter you can run some test tones through the EP350 and take readings on your SPL meter and see if there is any measurable difference between each phase setting. If there is leave the phase set to the one that produces the higher reading.

Bob, remember that he was running his M80s on large, which means they were producing frequencies down to about 30Hz--well into sub territory. I'm not sure why moving the sub didn't fix this either, but I don't know the particulars of his room, and I'm not an audio engineer.

Bob that is contrary to Alan's 'Receiver and Subwoofer Crossover Setup' article, here's an excerpt...

'For Axiom’s larger tower speakers--the M80ti’s, M60ti’s, and M50ti’s--depending on the particulars of room size, start by selecting the "Large" setting on your receiver for the left and right main speakers, and "Small" for the center and surround channels. With these settings, and the subwoofer set to "On," most receivers will route full-range sound, including deep bass, to the main left and right speakers, and bass below 80 Hz to the "Sub Out" jack on the rear panel of the receiver. (Some rooms may benefit from smoother bass by getting deep bass from three room locations--the sub plus the main left and right speakers--rather than a single subwoofer.) If running your left and right fronts on "Large" produces too much bass output, change the settings for the mains to "Small." You can also experiment with crossover frequencies, raising the center-channel crossover frequency to 120 Hz if you find that results in smoother dialog sound with less coloration. But 80 Hz is a generally desirable crossover frequency in most applications.'

Here's the entire article... Reciever and Subwoofer Crossover Setup

I am using two subs with my 80's set to 'large' without any cancellations issues ... that I know of anyway.

I am constantly amazed at how important room and placement issues are. A horrible room can single handedly make an expensive system not sound so good.

I have heard of room having a huge effect but not to the extent of totaly cancelling a sub. I suspect there was something wrong inside the sub and for some reason, it is now working.

::runs away with hands over the ears::

Keep them there Mark, After awhile you won't remember how bad your room actually is.

Having a bad room, I used to be surprised at how good my system sounded. As I learned more, it seems that most things have a much more subtle effect than many would have you believe. Call it the 'Blows this away' theory. People really want for there to be large differences between A and B, be it two sets of speakers a perfect room and a bad room, treated vs untreated...

Hell, I cut my giant room peak but 14db, a HUGE amount, and the difference is quite subtle. Maybe if I am able to resolve all my room issues the difference will be more pronounced, but I still doubt that the 'fixed' room will 'blow away' the original setup.

Maybe if you take the perfect recording in the perfect room with perfect speakers, it will blow away thaty crappy recording in that crappy room with crappy speakers, but in reality, there are just so many variables how likely is it that this will happen?