You are not logged in. [Log In]


Forums » General Discussion » Home Theater » Axiom vs Denon and ramblings

Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#256372 - 04/11/09 08:46 AM Axiom vs Denon and ramblings
onn Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/28/08
Posts: 999
Loc: Edmonton Alberta
Yesterday I had the pleasure of welcoming both Jay "jakewash" and Mark "doormat" to my home.
Jay stopped in to return my A1400 which he was demoing for the past month and Mark stopped by to check out the EP800's.
I will leave them to post any general comments / thoughts they may have. Jay did mention that he thought the Denon amp may be muffling the sound slightly on the highs compared to the Axiom amp. A short discussion resulted and it was decided a A / B comparison was warranted. Jay had to leave because of commitments and Mark and I decided to do the comparison.
We went to a 2 channel setup
We would listen to a number of tracks switching speaker connections during songs to try and hear any differences we could make out.
1) Sound levels dB's were different
Axiom was louder by about 2 dB
2) We could not really hear the muffling Jay was referring to
There may be a difference but the switching would need to be immediate to catch this difference if any

Conclusion
We decided a PROPER A / B would be needed since what we were doing wasn't accomplishing our intended goal. Flawed because of:
a) A proper switch is required to do the immediate amp switching. The switch would need to allow for level matching the 2 amps.
b) Same cabling connections. We were using XLR's off the Denon and RCA's off the Axiom
c) This is more of a question. How to properly detect any audible differences (REW ?)
If anyone has any guidelines for a proper A / B test let me know. I am going to find the switcher first.

That's it for now and the rambling
After the long weekend I hope Jay and Mark will give their impressions

Mel N.

I hope to hear from the sub demo king " Jay" on his impressions of the EP800
_________________________
My system

Top
#256380 - 04/11/09 11:32 AM Re: Axiom vs Denon and ramblings [Re: onn]
CV Online   confused
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11675
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
 Originally Posted By: onn
c) This is more of a question. How to properly detect any audible differences (REW ?)


I would think only your ears are required to detect audible differences. Otherwise, I think you're referring to measurable differences. You may ask Alan for tips on material to use for comparison purposes.

Top
#256382 - 04/11/09 11:45 AM Re: Axiom vs Denon and ramblings [Re: CV]
onn Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/28/08
Posts: 999
Loc: Edmonton Alberta
I guess I didn't ask the question properly and will try again
If you are A/ B ing 2 amps and your ears are telling you that there is something that is different between the 2. How can a person measure that sound difference. I mentioned the REW because if you graphed both amp setups would the graphs give you any info in relation to the differences in sound your hearing.
This is all new to me because I would expect there would be no noticeable changes.
Still on a search for a switch which will allow for this test.
_________________________
My system

Top
#256387 - 04/11/09 12:18 PM Re: Axiom vs Denon and ramblings [Re: onn]
LucRaymond Offline
devotee

Registered: 08/21/04
Posts: 310
Loc: montreal,qc,canada
 Originally Posted By: onn
I guess I didn't ask the question properly and will try again
If you are A/ B ing 2 amps and your ears are telling you that there is something that is different between the 2. How can a person measure that sound difference. I mentioned the REW because if you graphed both amp setups would the graphs give you any info in relation to the differences in sound your hearing.
This is all new to me because I would expect there would be no noticeable changes.
Still on a search for a switch which will allow for this test.


would this be of any help? there is a free version. Just plug a mic in a laptop and analyze what's coming out. You should be able to see what's coming out of both setups.
_________________________
M80,M60,M22,AX1.5,VP180,VP150,VP100,AX1.2,QS8
Emotiva XPA5,UPA2. Pio VSX33 & VSX32

Top
#256389 - 04/11/09 01:48 PM Re: Axiom vs Denon and ramblings [Re: LucRaymond]
onn Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/28/08
Posts: 999
Loc: Edmonton Alberta
Thanks for the link I will check it out
_________________________
My system

Top
#256392 - 04/11/09 02:13 PM Re: Axiom vs Denon and ramblings [Re: onn]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7786
Loc: Canada
First, I would think you need to know what it is that is affecting the sound. In amps they talk about clipping, distortion, slew rates and the like as affecting sound quality.

Now, you can measure the difference in distortion between two amps (if you have the right equipment), but how do you know that specifically is audibly affecting the sound the amp produces?

I seem to remember Tom Cumberland talking about slew rates and cliping when I asked him about the A1400 and sound quality. I keep hoping that Alan will jump in to one of these discussions as I think that he is probably the best one on the boards to address this topic.
_________________________
Fred

-------
Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

Top
#256418 - 04/11/09 06:40 PM Re: Axiom vs Denon and ramblings [Re: fredk]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10415
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
First I have to say the pics of Mel's system do not do it justice, it is absolutely gorgeous.

I felt the highs were not as open sounding with the Denon amp as I had heard with the Axiom amp at my house, but I was pretty much only in 2 channel for my listening and we had multichannel for the 40 minutes I was listening at Mel's. My room being samller could be the biggest issue for the differences I could hear as well as my 3808 might just have had a problem which could be why it died.

I would have to say the EP800 IS the sub I had been looking for, too bad I didn't wait a year longer before I bought. It has all the low end vibes my PB13 does and that beautiful all encompassing, rich texture, yet smooth sounding, the rest of the EP series has as well. Well done Axiom.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

Top
#256419 - 04/11/09 06:41 PM Re: Axiom vs Denon and ramblings [Re: onn]
davekro Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/12/09
Posts: 562
Loc: Discovery Bay, CA
Mel,

Here is the switch I am using for my A/B speaker test. It also has source A/B. You need to be sure to turn OFF the prev. amp (or speaker) BEFORE turning on the new amp (or speaker). I don't know if issues would arise, but after Jay's story, I wanted to be careful. It does have a protection circuit, but decreased SPL on speakers about 1.5-2 dB. No idea what else the prot. circuit might influence, so I left it off.



I don't recall what I paid for this 10+ years ago, but it must have been inexpensive for ME to buy it. ;\)


Edited by davekro (04/11/09 06:42 PM)
Edit Reason: cost
_________________________
Dave

"In theory, practice and theory are the same. In practice they're not."

Top
#256422 - 04/11/09 06:58 PM Re: Axiom vs Denon and ramblings [Re: davekro]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13565
Loc: Iowa
dude, you need to learn how to resize your pictures a little smaller..
_________________________
M80s-VP180-4xM22ow-4xM3ic-EP600-2xEP350
Anthem AVM60 Outlaw 7700 Emotiva A500 Epson 5040UB



Top
#256435 - 04/11/09 09:49 PM Re: Axiom vs Denon and ramblings [Re: onn]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10621
Mel, just a brief comment on amplifier comparisons(which really should be double-blind to have validity). If as you say the Axiom amplifier was about 2dB louder(apparently because of higher gain with the same voltage input), this would easily be enough to explain a report(not that you made such)of "wider sound stage" (which amplification as such has no ability to accomplish), clearer highs, stronger bass(both highs and lows are more prominent at a higher listening level), and other differences which amplification doesn't affect. This is why one of the basic requirements in blind testing of amplifiers is that the levels be matched to within 0.1dB.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >

Moderator:  alan, Amie, Andrew, axiomadmin, Brent, Debbie, Ian, Jc 
Forum Stats

15,207 Registered Members
15 Forums
23,963 Topics
423,616 Posts

Most users ever online:
883 @ 03/04/17 05:06 PM

Top Posters
Ken.C 18044
pmbuko 16437
SirQuack 13565
CV 11675
MarkSJohnson 11437
0 registered ()
33 Guests and
4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newsletter Signup