Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo bookshelf speaker as center channel

Hi -

I am interested in getting new M2 speakers and wondered if getting a third M2 to be used as a center channel speaker (turning the M2 on it's side in my media cabinet).

Will this work?
Should all 3 front speakers be the same?

Would it make any sense to get (2) M22's and an M2 for the center?

I will be adding a subwoofer in the future (I am still undecided on that - EP350 or SVS or Epik).

Thanks in advance for your help.
Mike

Welcome to the forum ab030.

Having all 3 front speakers the same is ideal. However when you are deciding with placement of the M2 bookshelf as a centre speaker you have to keep it in a vertical orientation (as it was designed) for best results . If you can place a M2 right on top of your television or wall mount it slightly above that would be the way to go. If you have to go with a horizontal placement then the VP100 would be the way to go. The EP350 is also a excellent choice.

How big is your room btw?

Cheers!

Will it work, yes, however turning a vertical speaker on its side can screw up the horizontal dispersion of the intended design. Also, you mention a "media cabinet", speakers with rear ports need room for the low bass to filter into the room.

THanks Doc.

Room size is about 15x24 with the back wall open to the kitchen.

I am actually undecided on speakers and love what I read about the Axiom line of speakers. I have read reviews about the VP100 that it was underwhelming.

But the M2 and M3 reviews are outstanding - so I was thinking of getting 3 of the same speakers for the front -- but I would have to lay the center on its side.

My entertainment center has a shelf under to hold a center-channel speaker.
I am not quite sure how much weight it can hold.
It does have metal supports and is 3/4 " thick -- so I hope it can hold 10 - 15 pounds.

The shelf where the center channel speaker is to be placed does have a back on it.
It is about 24 inches deep.

Are the VP100's ported and also need space?

Mike, welcome. Yes a third M2 would be a good idea for a center speaker(you might consider first trying the mains handling the center channel by way of the "phantom" effect), but not tipped over on its side. For wider and smoother horizontal dispersion these speakers have to be vertical, as they were designed to be used. If you can't figure out some way to position them correctly and you decide to use a center speaker, you might as well use a horizontal unit that fits the space.

The VP100 IS NOT ported and can be used in an enclosed shelf. Just dont bury it deep inside.

If placing a vertical M2 centre is impossible I would definitely go with the VP100. You could even try something like this . Dual subwoofers acting as your speaker stands for your M2's.

I would not call the vp100 and vp150 underwhelming. Hope you haven't been listening to those AVSforum folks.

Thanks to all!

I am planning my speaker purchase in the next few months.

Thanks for the info on the VP100 - I haven't been to the AVS site - and I actually don't remember where I read about them.

I do like the idea of the subwoofers as speaker stands.

I have never owned a sub before -- will the speaker be OK sitting on top of a sub?
Any extra padding or something between the top of the sub and the bottom of the speaker needed?

Also - please explain the 'phamtom' effect.

I would not recommend putting speakers on top of subwoofers, and if I recall correctly, I believe some at Axiom have stated this as well. I suppose you could use some absorption material to isolate the two.

Phantom center is when the avr simply spreads the center channel information between the 2 main speakers when there is not a dedicated center speaker.

Have you considered a VP150, or is it too large? It is definately the way to go in a room that big if you cannot fit a third vertical main.

M22's are probably better, too... Mainly because the back wall is open. If it's too much bread right now you could always phantom the center for the time being.

vp150 might be too heavy for the shelf it would sit on.

Could this work?

Two M22's as main speakers on stands next to my media cabinet and two M2's as centers but located next to the TV on top of the cab- can the center channel signal be sent to two speakers (is that the phantom effect?) - would both of those speakers get the same signal?

Very new at this - sorry!

How do Axiom speakers hook to the receiver?
Plain speaker wire or some other connection?

Hi Mike,
I am agreed with Potatohead on the M22's and VP150. However you obviously have to work within your budget and physical constraints.

The normal configuration would be left and right front speakers only and optionally a center channel. Without the center channel there would only be the left and right fronts which would create the phantom center effect. By turning off the center channel in your AVR the signals that would have been routed to the center speaker are instead mixed into the front left and right channels - creating the 'phantom' center channel.

The speakers connect to your AVR with standard speaker cable. It's up to you if you want to use banana plugs or some other connectors. You can always use bare speaker wire into the binding posts with no connectors.

Hope that helps.

Hi ab030,

I really do not advocate doing the phantom center-channel thing--it's extremely limiting, first because you cannot adjust the volume of the dialog during movies, and second, because it only works if you sit exactly in the sweet spot between the left and right main speakers.

If you sit anywhere off-axis towards the left or right front speakers in the phantom mode, the dialog will move away from the TV screen to the nearest speaker, ruining the illusion.

So unless you're severely constrained budget-wise, I'd suggest you go with a single M2 or M22 and, if you want, put it on its side. Yes, it will affect dispersion somewhat but you may not even notice it. In my tests using a single M2 or M22 as a center on its side, I could not easily distinguish differences using program material (movies or CDs). It's certainly audible using a pink-noise test signal, but the latter is extremely critical and there are lots of anomalies audible using test signals that are not audible with programming.

Both the M2 and M22 are ported, so you'll want to leave a few inches of space behind the speaker for venting, and keep the front edge of the speaker protruding over the lip of the shelf so you don't get tonal colorations from the adjacent furniture.

Regards,
Alan

OK - no phantom effect.
My original plan was to get 3 front speakers.

So -- what will sound better?

Three M2's across the front (including one for the center on its side) ?
Or two M2's in the front and a VP100 for the center?

If I have options - I will go with what sounds best.

The M2 on it's side has poor dispersion so throw that idea out and stick with M2 or M22s as mains and then look at the VP100 or VP150 as the center. The 150 plays a little bit lower in tone and I find certain male voices to sound better with it.

If you gave me those 2 choices I would go with the 2 M2's and the VP100.

I'm intrigued by Alan's comments. If it were anyone else I would probably dismiss it, but this is a guy that has spent years using his ears to validate things.

Hi Fredk and Mike,

At the risk of further confusing the issue, while the idea of three identical speakers across the front is appealing, the practical reality is that because of specific placement issues and the vagaries of an individual room, using an identical speaker as a center channel won't guarantee that it will tonally sound identical to its left and right-channel mates, especially if you use pink noise as a test signal.

Pink noise (the standard test signal built into most AV receivers) is extremely critical. If you switch between left, center, and right using say, three M2s or three M22s, in most rooms and setups the tonal balance will vary, which many enthusiasts initially find disconcerting. The upside is that all Axiom speakers, including the VP100 and VP150, are tonally very close and with some experimentation in placement will produce a seamless blend with music or movie soundtracks.

I can't really tell you whether you'd prefer the sound of an M2 or M22 over a VP100 or 150 used as a center. With a proper A/B switching setup, you might conclude that they are so close in tonal balance as to be called "similarly good". I do not think you'd be disappointed using either the VP100 or an M2 as a center.

Regards,

Alan

From my own personal experience and Alan mentioned about being able to boost the centre channel in the receiver is a big deal. I find source material to be very inconsistent with how the centre is mixed more than any other aspect in the soundtracks. Sometimes it is mixed much to low or to high where it blows you away. Having that type of flexibility to adjust the centre channel volume is great with a dedicated center especialyy if you watch a lot of tv where the sound program material varies dramatically from channel to channel and even from program to program on the exact same station.

THanks to all for your replies.

I plan to get 2-M2's and a VP100 center.

Next - onto the receiver selection - I am leaning towards a mid-priced Denon.

Denon is a very popular brand on these forums, great choice! Get the Denon model that has the features you want because any of their models will drive your system with ease. Actually any reputable manufacturer of a/v receivers will work great in your case.

You have been very helpful Doc! Thanks.

I have read good things about Onkyo and Denon.
I also need a DVD player and will probably get that from Denon as well.

Are you not interested in a Blu-ray player? They will play your current DVD collection as well. The blu-ray format is an amazing thing, the picture and sound quality is superb.

I certainly wouldn't spend the money on a Denon DVD player.

OPPO

I would not spend alot on a DVD player at this point in the formats history. However you can get them very cheap now less than $100.

Personally I would invest in a Blu-ray player. Brands such as OPPO, Panasonic, Sony and Samsung make very good quality players at competitive prices. Denon also makes a decent blu-ray player but they are usually priced much higher than the above. I like OPPO and Panasonic in this regards when it comes to price and peformance.

I have Panasonic BD-65 and it has been great, and not too expensive either

Will a Blu-Ray player also play regular DVDs?

YES! A blu-ray player will be able to play all of your dvd's. I also use my blu-ray player for c.d's as well.

I have to ask -- why a Blu-Ray player?

If you don't care about playing Blu-rays, then no reason.

If you have an HDTV and a speaker setup as nice as some Axioms, it becomes incredibly obvious as to why blu-ray

Here is a few articles for you

Q & A on Blu-ray

http://axiomaudio.com/blu_ray_hd.html

Blu-ray (sound)

http://www.axiomaudio.com/blu-ray_player_sound.html

"I have to ask -- why a Blu-Ray player? "

I would turn that around...

Why not Blu-ray?

Blu-ray is the new standard in disk media. It will play your DVDs as well as a top upscaling DVD player. It will play your CDs as well as a CD player. It will do everything a DVD player will do, for about the same amount of money. You can find a Blu-ray player for as little as $98 at Walmart. That is as much as a decent DVD player.

You don't have to buy Blu-rays. You can keep getting DVDs. But if you are buying a player, there is almost no reason at all to buy a DVD player unless saving a few dollars is the most important thing to you. And it isn't since you are buying pretty high end speakers.

I suggest the Onkyo 607 receiver. It will give you the most features for the least amount of money.

now I am listening...

my tv is an old toshiba - not HD and no HDMI cables, etc.

is blu-ray still recommended?
my plan was to get the $169 OPPO DV-980H.

Any recommendations for a blu-ray player?

What's the size and maximum resolution of your TV. If it can't at least do 720, then it's probably not worth it except that you will be future proofed if you are thinking about a new TV in the next few years. If your TV is going to stay for a few more years, I'd wait around and see what new technologies bring.