Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Something equvilent to the M60's

Hi guys,

I' m looking into buying some Axiom speakers for my first setup. I've been looking at the M60's and maybe building from there to get a full 5.1 or 7.1. I figure I might look elsewhere for the sub as I feel I may get more for my buck but I don't know.

My real question is does anyone have an opinion of another set of mains I'd be able to hear in store to get a feel for what the M60's would be like? I've been to a few places around the city (Halifax) and we seem to have brands like Paradigm, klipsch, PSB, monitor, polk, mordaunt short and probably a few others. We also have FS and BB as well.

Any help would be very much appreciated.

Ivor

Welcome to the forum!

Futureshop carries Energy speakers which are worth a listen along with the included list above. Try to listen to as many speakers as possible.

The great thing about auditioning Axioms is that you can do it in your own home, so you will have an exact idea on how they will sound while trying them out during the 30 day trial period.

Welcome Ivor. The Paradigm Studio 60 has a similar sound to the M60s if you are able to hear a pair of those and I believe some have said the PSB Imagine Series (NOT Image series) has a similar sound. I can attest to the similarities between the M80s and the Pdigm Studio 100s, I own M80s and auditioned the 100s which were quite close...detailed, with power to spare and wide range.

Murph is in your neck of the woods (PEI). If you offer up a little wine, he might just indulge you in a listen.

Or a Jeep differential....

Jeep differentials are always good.

B&W 703's and Paradigm Studio 60's should be similar. You could check the Audition thread in the "Hearing Things" section to see if there is another Axiom owner in your area.

Yeah I'm going to have to call Axiom and get an estimate of return shipping just in case I don't like them after the audition. I'll go give the studio 60's a listen in the meantime.

So I guess I should just throw together a listening CD and go around and use it for listening to all the different brands? Do you guys think that downloaded flac audio would be high enough quality to use for a listening CD?

The higher the compression the better, keep in mind good speakers like Axioms will bring out the flaws in poorly done recordings...

Er... I guess you meant: the higher the playback rate (less compression), the better...

oh yeah, it must be Monday... lol

So I haven't given too much thought to the other Axiom speakers, I just kind of went right to the M60's because I figured I had a bigger room. My room is about 15'x25'x8' with a dinning room separated by a half wall and a 7' hallway attached to the living room.

I was wondering if the M60's are that much of a step up from the M50's or M22's. Basically do you think I would need the extra size of the M60's?

I have a Denon 790 on order if that matters.

Ivor, that is quite a large room actually and the M60s or M80s for that matter would be my choice. The M50s btw, are a 2 1/2 way design vs the 3 way of the 60s and 80s. I'll let some of the other members who have heard them or own them both(50s vs 60s), tell you the difference sonically between them. I believe the 60s have more detail than the 50s as well as being a little more powerfull.

Depends also on how loud your listening level is.

The M50s are actually purely a 2 way design--I think Paradigm is the only company that does 2 1/2 way designs.

Generally I would prefer M60s over M50s. M22s vs. M50s is a bit more of a toss up (esp. since I haven't heard M50v2s), but it kind of comes down to how much bass you need/want from your mains vs. how pinpoint the imaging you want is. You can get good imaging from the M50s, but it requires more careful positioning.

Most Monitor Audio speakers are 2 1/2. I think you'll find quite a few out there actually (Alan told me the M50s were a 2 1/2 way before I bought my speakers).

See, I interpret 2 1/2 as meaning there's a different part of the crossover for each of the woofers. My understanding is that the M50 crossover outputs the same signal to both woofers. At least my v1s appear to do that.

With over 2 grand in "just in case" parts standing at the ready for when we open up the rear end tomorrow, I'd let you walk away with one set of my two pairs of M60s if you arrived with a complete housing for a 2003 Rubicon......

Seriously though, I'd love to do a demo for you here in PEI. AS mentioned, I have two sets of M60s. One set is in a larger, open living space in stereo setup and the other is part of a 5.1 HT system in a smaller, basement room that includes M60s, EP500, QS8s and a VP150. It would offer you a chance to hear them in two very different environments.

Each to his own but if you feel like a 4 hour drive, I'd be willing to guess that you will leave with cell phone in hand to place the order.

Ken, this is part of what Alan told me when I asked him "what constitutes a 2 1/2 way design vs 2 or 3 way?"

"....In a "2 1/2 way design, one of the two woofers has a low pass filter (passes the lows and rolls off the highs) on it; the other woofer does not have a low pass filter on it so it is allowed to mechanically/acoustically roll off naturally....this design is used on the Axiom M50 tower speaker..."

Hunh. I wonder if that's a recent (ish) change or if they've always been like that. How odd!

Murph,

I'd be interested in hearing those M60's, I occasionally head over to the island for work and I have to go over for a wedding in the next little while. Where in PEI do you live?

Thanks,

Ivor

I'll send you directions and photos to his place. I've been stalking him for some time now.

Wow! A referral from a chat board stalker. LOL

Since flac is a lossless audio format, the quality coming out should equal the quality that went in. You don't lose any audio quality because of the compression.

-Dave

Of course the quality going in can often be crap to begin with depending on the producer and the bands desire to be loud verses clear.

Wilwom, I'll send you a private message with some further details in just a bit. I have to do a work item first. Mark has been hiding in my bushes ever since I posted too much info in this forum the last time.

It's no secret though that I live in South Rustico, Cymbria to be exact, but most people don't know where that is so I go with the better known, Rustico.

Ken and Adrian,

It's been so long, I can't remember! That used to be the M50 design, but it may have changed. I'll ask Ian.

In effect, Ken, what you say is also correct: the 2 1/2 way does use a different crossover arrangement for each woofer. It's just that on the second woofer of the M50, it's a mechanical/acoustical crossover, so it will carry some midrange content (no low-pass on the second woofer). The same arrangement is used on the M3's single woofer. It's allowed to mechanically roll off rather than using an electrical network. The M3 still has a crossover with a high-pass filter to keep low frequencies out of the tweeter. There just isn't a low-pass on the woofer.

Regards,
Alan

OK, now I'm going to have to stick my ear up against the woofers on my M50s and see if I can hear a difference.

Do you have the "Golden Ear", Ken?

If it's still a 2 1/2-way, you might be able to hear a bit more midrange/upper midrange content from the woofer with the mechanical/acoustical crossover.

By the way, an M50 was put into a double-blind test I was doing recently up at the plant. I don't have the rating sheet in front of me, but I remember writing down: "this is a very nice speaker. Very natural solo male and female vocals, but I wish it had a bit more detail on orchestral and choral works."

The other speaker in the comparison was a competitor's model that had so much detail, I called it "shrill".

Alan

Hmm. Sounds about right. I'm still curious about the difference between the tis and the v2s.

I have M80’s. I have not heard M60’s, although I suspect they are similar. Having said that……….

The speaker that I think has the closest sound to the M80 is the Paradigm Studio 100. The 100’s are slightly more laid back than the 80’s. If you listen to the 100’s and like the way they sound, chances are pretty good that you’ll like the M60 or M80. The other speaker that sounds somewhat like the M80’s is the B&W 704. I don’t know if they still make them or not, but again, if you like the 704’s, you’ll probably like the M60 or M80.

Keep in mind that these are just my impressions. I have not ever heard any of these side by side, which is the only ‘real’ way to make an accurate comparison.

Have you asked Axiom of there is anyone in your area with Axioms that you can listen to? I bet there is.

FYI The new MA Platinum lineup floorstandings are a true 3-way design.
The one thing i didn't like about the old Silver and Gold 2.5 way was i found it to be a bit bassy.
Had they crossed over instead, i bet the bass would have been less.

The Energy Veritas line i thought sounded very similar to M80s, at triple the price.

Thanks for all the info guys. I definitely have some work to do, going to try and get out to some of the stores this week. I'll have to call Axiom and get some recommendations on speaker sizes and auditions.

It was the Bronze/Silver/Gold floorstanders which I was really eluding to, the Silvers being the most likely to be compared to the Axioms. Those PL300s are +++$$$$+++.

Yes the MA Silver 6s are well matched to the M60s. I found the S8s to be way too bassy but a beautiful midrange.

So basically what I heard so far to help hear where the Axiom line stands when I`m shopping for speakers is as follows:

M50 or M22 - Not really sure
M60 - Paradigm Studio 60, B&W 703
M80 - Paradigm Studio 100, B&W 704, Energy Veritas

Does anyone have and insight on the M22`s or the M50`s. Just wondering if the M22`s will do it for me. The girlfriend is already giving me hard time about the price of the M60`s...

Some links of reviews on these forums of the speakers of which you speak that you may want to peruse (keep in mind the M40s were a slightly smaller version of the M50s):

http://tinyurl.com/nmeacq
http://tinyurl.com/nb8vyy
http://tinyurl.com/l43eo9
http://tinyurl.com/lbkf7y

Ivor, it's too bad you didn't let us know your boss had to ok this otherwise we would have told you to get the M80s and let her talk you "down" to getting the 60s .

Ok, seriously, the M22's have been noted by many on the forums here that when used with a sub they provide a similar sound envelope to the M80s, so I'm sure they will make you happy and if you ever wanted to go to floorstanders in the future you could integrate these as either rears in a 7.1 system or use them in another zone/room.

The Paradigms shouldn't be too hard to locate for you, perhaps less so, the B&Ws and as for the Veritas, I'm not sure if they make them anymore....I couldn't locate any at all early this year, and I live 20 miles from their Markham office.(I could be wrong though).

So you could, in fact, say that M80s/similar to/Pdigm Studio 100/similar to/M22+Sub....the M80s and Studios will go very, very loud(if wanted) where the M22's will go loud.

I haven't heard any B&W speakers but by many accounts, they are similar to the Axiom sound albeit at a higher fee.

I think you'd be very happy with the M22s, just remember you may need to add the price of stands to your purchase to get them up off the floor. If you consider this, it narrows the price down some compared with towers. I'm not sure if someone told you about the 10% FO discount or the 5% HT discount as well.

Actually, I found them to sound almost identical to the M60 when I did my A/B comparison at Axiom. If it were a choice between the M60 + sub and the M22 + sub, I would go with the M22 + sub.

In the end, the M22, M60 and M80 have a lot in common.

First of all thanks for all the input guys. It's nice to see that the members here will provide some answer to those of us who are new to this.



I though the exact same thing as soon as she said it!!

Maybe I'll look into the M22's and a good sub, I'm moving into the new place in a few days (the one I described ealier) and it is a flat so maybe the 60's would be too much. It's only young guys downstairs so they shouldn't mind the noise, I just figured I'd be buying the M60's to future proof my system for when I move into a house in the next year or two.

The idea of another zone down the road is a good point though, I will have that capability on my avr. Do you think I have to spend much on the stands? I saw a pair at the store on saturday for $40 which was more than half off? The were used for demo speakers in the store, but they stopped using them.

Does anyone have any input as to how the Denon 790 would perform with the Axiom's? Some people tell me certain reveivers go better with certain speakers than others.

Pure sillyness. The 790 will be just fine. It was one of the receivers I was looking at before I found a deal on the 2808.

thanks Fred, I though so.

Hmm, well apparently TinyURL doesn't work so well in capturing the threads.
I can repost if requested.

Ask her to come with you to audition the other speakers. Then tell her that the M60s have comparable sound for so much less $$$!

Yeah, I didn't know what was going on there.

Mark's plan is devious....I love it!!

Do you guys think the SVS PB10-NSD would be enough sub for my room? Any other recommendations?

For a 15'x25'x8 it might be a bit of a stretch if you are looking for room shaking bass during movies. Great sub for the price though. I believe it would be as good in performance to the EP350.

So you're recommending bigger then. What about the PB12-NSD? Trying not to completely blow my budget.

Ivor, do you have a price/budget in mind on your sub? some of the subs you find online unfortuanately become quite pricy when importing across the border. Sonic Boom is the Canadian distributor for SVS in case you didn't know. There are quite a few choices open to you depending on your price range.

The 12 should do quite well.

I was trying to keep it under $800, (just a guess) less obviously being better. Yeah I was on sonic boom checking out the SVS subs. I figured I'd try to avoid too much shipping cost by going to a Canadian distributor. Not really familiar with many other companies that operate in Canada because I just started looking into subs.

I haven't looked into building one yet either.

Without reading this entire thread, have you considered the Axiom 350v3? Hell of a sub for the money.

I hadn't looked at it whole lot. How would it compare to the PB12-NSD from svs? (they're about the same price)

If you don't go with SVS(Sonic Boom), you could also try Audio Visual (AVU) for a Paradigm DSP3400 within that price range. My room is smaller than yours(around 2100 cft) but the 3400 works well for HT and music at a reasonable price...I paid $700.00 after a little "negotiating". The 3400 uses a 14" driver, the 3200 uses a 12" and is cheaper still while rated at the same power (300 w sustained 900w pk). I believe I was quoted about $550 on the DSP3200 a few months back. Remember that the prices are always negotiable in walk-in stores.

You could get an EP350 through the Factory Outlet for $700 and change as well if you don't mind waiting 3-4 wks.

You do have a fairly large room, so make sure you get enough sub for it.

Yeah I was into Audio Visual the other day and the guy said they're having a tax free sale in the next couple weeks (-13%). Do you think I'd still be able to get him down more from that on a sub or am I pushing it?

I have never heard the M22s but have heard enough to know they would make you very happy with a good subwoofer.

On your comment about the M60s being "too much", however. Keep in mind that volume is volume. Aside from physical fit, no reasonably designed home speaker is 'too big' for a room, it all depends how loud you turn it. A loud M22 at 85db is still the same loudness as an M60 at 85db.

The exception, of course, is that some speakers are better at lower bass sounds. Lower frequencies travel through walls and ceilings easier. The M60s will play deeper by themselves than the smaller M22s but you are also getting a sub woofer so it negates that point. The deep bass will be measured by the loudness of your sub, not the main speakers.

Mark also has a point, although you don't have to quiet as devious. My wife was very negative about buying floor standing speakers even after we built the larger home. Until she heard them.

She still pretends to have no interest in good audio but a personal victory for me was one time she returned from visiting her Mom and they tried to watch a movie on her TV and just the built in speakers. She started explaining to me how hard it was to watch the movie because it sounded so bad.
WIN!!!

So do make sure you take your wife if you come for an audition. You will still get a good idea of what many of the Axiom lineup sound like and you just might convince her she needs that exact pair. Worst case scenario, she can go have a chat with my wife about how silly we are. I'm sure my wife would enjoy that.

Then go with M80s. If she`s complaining for M60s, it won't be that much worse with M80s!

It's still a buyers market out there, if he thinks you're walking, he'll deal with you. When I bought my sub, they had it "on sale" online for over $800. I asked them what "their price" was, he said he could give it to me for $730 so I offered him $700...he took it. He also had a 4 month old display model DSP3400 that he said I could have for $600, which in hindsight, I wished I had of bought also.

I find that almost any business will deal with you as long as they feel you're not convinced you want what they're selling. Afterall, you have what they want....$$$....they are one of many who have what you want, being the sub. Good luck.

Is it expensive to order HSU subs in Canada? I hear a lot about them as well.

You'd have to contact HSU about that, AFAIK when you bring audio equip't into Canada from the US, you just pay GST and PST as if you had purchased locally. I actually went to Canada Customs in person about 6 weeks ago and enquired about bringing audio equip't across the border....keep in mind I am referring to bringing said items across the border myself, not through a broker or ordering online for shipment. Contact HSU, see what they say, I'm sure they get a lot of enquiries from Canada.

Maybe we could convince BigWyres to bring a bunch back in his truck for us and have a sidewalk sale. If he is driving, he'd be to busy to pour concrete in them........I think.

Could not have said it better!! I bought the M60's earlier this summer after auditioning the Studio 60's. Best decision that I have made in years. Wife was the same.....HOW BIG are they? Won't they be obtrusive? Won't they Stick out too much? Blah, Blah, Blah. I finally found a Mark Kopfler CD (not Ragpicker) and put it on. She was not in the listening area - but close. Bout 7 tracks into it, I paused it and she said Hey! I was enjoying listening to that! WIN!. We came back from our beach trip where the only speakers were the TV speakers. First thing we watched after returning - comment was "OH...that sounds different" WIN!.....She won't say better - that has to be the assumption.

So I contacted HSU and they are wondering what sub I would like a quote for. How is it that I size a sub anyway? Is it amp power? Enclosure size? I was thinking the VTF-2 MK 3, But that's just based on price, I don't know what I would need for size. I'd like to get it down to a few options for subs. So far I have the 2 from SVS and the Axiom EP350 and I'd like to see what HSU has to offer in that price range.

I know I'm probably starting to annoy you guys picking you brains like this, But I really do appreciate it. Sometimes it's hard to get a response in other forums.

@ Murph and Argon

I have a feeling I'm going to be in the same situation. She loves listening to music and watching movies just as much as I do. She'll come around eventually.

Edit: I found this , should give me an idea of what I need.

Epik and Outlaw might be a couple of other brands to check out. If you are in contact with HSU(or other) tell them the size of room you have, what your goals are(music,HT preference) and see what recommendations they make. For your size of space, I think you'll be looking at something similar to the EP350 or better in Axiom's lineup.

Check out these!!!! $400!!!!

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/floorstanding/emp-tek-e5ti

They look amazing. I wonder if they sound as good...

Sounds like a pretty good deal. Someone snag them and let us know.

They're touting that people should buy them but they're not offering a review or specs?

Is it me or has Audioholics gotten "weird" since they started offering products for sale?

Sad to say I have to agree with you. They use to back up their speaker reviews better (granted this is I think just a “first impression“).

There was just a small dustup between one of there mods and Craig over at the TCA forum about the issue of their selling products.

Those speakers do look interesting but the manufactures website has no graphs or anything to indicate how they perform. I can post any MSRP I want and put a slash through it with a 40% markdown. The same thing was the norm over at AV123. When I see something like that I just remind myself they are speakers and not jewelry.

OTOH, if you are sure you’ve got a killer product and want to get a buzz going this should work.

Before I bought my Ax's, I was looking at another line of speakers(designed in Canada/made offshore). There were only a small handfull of write-ups on these particular speakers, as they were fairly new to the market, although their parent company has been around for decades. Anyway, the "list price" on the towers were around $1200pr CN, most dealers were selling them for anywhere from $699 to $899...one store was willing to sell me a pair for $400. Talk about fluctuating prices! Obviously, anytime a deal looks "too good", you need to exercise a lot of caution when considering a purchase. It doesn't mean that it's not a good product necessarily, because new companies especially are out there to establish themselves and may offer better deals initially.

I've seen this, even with established companies who are expanding their product line into other areas, they'll offer amazing deals initially to get people interested esp. if there is some very established competition in that area. It's always better to let someone else be the guinea pig though, if there are no decent reviews on the product in question.

Wow, am I THAT bad? Man, that hurts my ego!

This is killing me, I have one M22 and my PB12. If the other one doesn't come before the end of the day it going to be a rough weekend. Just hoping another truck is coming today.

They were both most likely on the truck but the driver couldn't find it right away. He simply delivered what he could find to make some working space in the truck. Hope he shows up again with the second M22.

it's strange the SVS was shipped with UPS and the M22's with Purolator, the guy that showed didn't seem like he was either but he had both packages.

He was most likely an owner/operator and Purolator carries UPS to areas they do not service regularly in Canada.

Just means he's got to make another trip now, bad planning on the courier's part.

Just a bad pre-load.

Yeah, Ivor; that's a bit strange because both my M22s came in one box and I thought that was still the case.

Do you own any mono Beatles recordings?

Ha ha, now that's funny!