Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Technical Questions Tweeter differences

Is there any major tonal difference between the regular titanium tweeter and the "hybrid" tweeter used in some models?

yes,

the hybrid uses a half inch voice coil, whereas the others use a regular 1 inch voice coil. The hybrid tweeters are less open, less airy, and, of course, not as detailed and clear.

Why would one use a half inch voice coil in a one inch tweeter?

Hi,

The short answer to using a half-inch voice coil in a 1-inch tweeter is cost.

Using a 1-inch voice coil means a larger magnet and greater power-handling capability. The magnet/voice-coil assembly is the speaker's motor--a reciprocating electro-magnetic motor--and the larger voice coil yields better high-level power handling with less distortion and improved heat dissipation. But it's also more expensive, which is why it's found on more expensive models in the Axiom lineup.

Huh! I wonder how many out there have half inchers.

My brother and I both have m60ti. My tweeters are incredibly cleaner than his. We’ve always puzzled about why that is. I mean there is a ton of factors, source , room, power plant etc. But at high volume his break up way easier and messier. Maybe he’s got half inchers.

Interesting idea mojo, rolling back to old posts.

Maybe I’ll compare our serial numbers and see who’s got the older speakers and possibly the half inch voice coils.

That would be very interesting. If all other factors are the same, I'd say it has to do with the amplification.

Maybe an easy test would be to just try my receiver on his speakers next time we meet up.

He’s using a vintage HK with raspberry Pi / volumio fed Spotify.

Same lacklustre tweeter sound when we play his turntable too via the vintage HK.

Then he comes here to my place and we just jammed some Hanne Boel and Larry Carlton and he commented that my tweeters were soooooo smooth. Go figure.

Maybe the ferrofluid in his tweeter is no longer ferrofluiding.

Oh interesting. Right. I suppose that’s a possibility. I’ll have to read about ferrofluid properties and shelf life.

Wonder if there’s a way to rejuvenate the fluid….

The lifetime depends on how loud they're played and for how long. 20 years may be pushing it. The fluid can be replaced but you have to disassemble the tweeter and put in the right amount. Too much and she'll blow. Too little and she'll ignite. Axiom uses a precision-calibrated pump to get the perfect amount.

Hmmmm. Well that sounds like an unlikely step , if it is the ferrofluid. And the cost to put new tweeters in he might as well just grab some m5hps from b stock store.

We ll start with the receiver swap and serial number check for half inchers.

His room is also quite narrow and his left channel is missing a wall for the first reflection ( think I’m stating that right ) so he well may be way out of phase but it’s only the tweeter that sounds poor. Midrange is outstanding. And bass is authoritative but unrefined in his room.

Guess I was wrong. V3 tweeters are 79$ Canadian each. So actually pretty reasonable. Would v3 tweeters work ok with ti crossovers?

I don't know about v3 but apparently v4 is backwards compatible.

Kodiak, the half-incher has 3 legs on the diffusing lens whereas the one incher has 4 legs.

Oh good info !!!

Just checked mine. 4 fins surrounding the tweeter.

I’ll get my brother to check his.

Thanks for that. That’s a real nice easy way to confirm that.

How did you find that out? An old post or something? I searched for more info on the old tweeters but can’t say I used good key words or not.

Anyway, Thankyou. !

I know many Axiom things. Some things, Axiom doesn't even know. Moooowaaaaahahaha!

My brothers m60ti have 4 fins surrounding the tweeters. So no half incher there. We will try amplification change next to see if that softens things a bit. Again, it’s a distortion and breakup issue at higher volumes, we are not trying to make them sound “less bright” but just want them to handle a reasonable volume without the breakup, as I know they can handle it, evidenced by my own tweeters m60ti.

Maybe it is the ferro fluid reaching its lifespan….we ll see.

This whole discussion sent my brain down a deep, dark path as I thought about the dynamics of ferrofluid in the tweeter's magnetic gap. There's a lot of parasitic stuff going on electrically and mechanically as that fluid moves around. A speaker designer just can't win unless s/he places tight boundaries on the intent of the design.

Good morning, sorry to set you off down down the rabbit hole of ferro fluid!

Well here’s a question to keep you in the darkness of despair……

It sounds tricky to get fluid tolerances just right and it’s a system where it’s days are possibly numbered in terms of maintaining quality…..( 20 years or more is pretty good…) but there must be a good reason / advantages that a designer would choose that? There must be sonic and or mechanical benefits , one of which I’m guessing is cooling and or damping.

Now I’m curious what other tweeter designs are out there , how they work and the benefits of those choices designers have to make. For example why does Klipsch choose a horn over others? ( just picking the obvious) or ribbons come to mind…..

Axiom v4 has a horn. I can attest Andrew did a great job on that one given all the constraints. Not nearly as masculine as the old Klipsch compression chamber, throat and mouth though.

Oh cool. The “wave guide “ thing on the front baffle makes it a horn? Or the overall design makes it a horn? I guess I envisioned a horn as well, what a stereotypical horn would look like.

Need to hear some v4 horns soon. !

I don't think any current Axiom speaker uses a horn tweeter. They did make some Meraks with a horn tweeter.

As the first post by Ian says, it is indeed a horn. A shallow one at that. I don't know the technical name for that geometry.

A horn is a type of waveguide. I suppose this may be the case of a horny waveguide.

https://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php/topics/400862/1/New_Tweeter

Just following up here. I've had my brothers HK integrated here and have done a fair bit of listening to it. It's super interesting that it actually sounds quite a bit different than my Yamaha. It's got a fair bit more heft in the bass, but not muddy. It's just got more oomph. I've been missing that and it brings more of that emotional impact i've talked about missing. I've done all listening with the tone defeat on. Of course im going from audio memory to my Yamaha but I think it's fair to say I know how that receiver sounds. The midrange isn't as forward and realistic as my Yamaha, which I now now i really like as I miss that aspect of the sound, the HK has a nice midrange but it's not as " in the room " as the Yamaha. As for the high frequencies, ( which was the main point of doing the trade to figure out his tweeter breakup ) it sounds good to me on my M60's. Again, it's not as smooth or " real " as the Yamaha but it's still really good, no breakup at reasonable to loud SPL. It does eventually breakup but i think im pushing the amplifier too hard in my large space, im sitting anywhere from 12-18 feet back. ( It's really easy to move the couch back and fortha s we we don't have much furniture in the new large space here yet.)

One possiblity for his tweeter breakup could actualy be his room. He reports the same kind of breakup / messy high freq using my Yamaha. ( He also reports that the Yamaha sounds less " full " than the HK to him.) His room is quite narrow and long and the speakers are quite close together. I don't have the technical verbage to articulate what is maybe going on, but it's possible that having the speakers so close together and in long space with 9 foot ceiling is creating a complex web of reflections. There is also alot of glass along one wall. I'm betting its his room. At lower SPL things sound pretty nice to him. I told him to somehow try puitting the speakers along the long wall, but theres noway that they could stay there as it's not practical at all. I guess the other test is to bring the m60's to my place or to another room andtry them out before spending money on new tweeters or amplification. I think he would do well with some m2's and 2 ep125. I bet he could integrate those into his room better. Drive the m2 with the HK and seperate the bass into the subs. But that still doesn't help the room...

Maybe the mids are less forward because the bass is more prominent.

When a speaker's high frequency response is flat or exaggerated, a reflective room will make the speaker sound thinner. If you look at the active LFR response, it declines in a textbook fashion and it sounds spectacular in a room. The old tweeters and family of curves don't help either.

Yeah mids could be less forward due to bass. I also feel like my Yamaha, when using the Pure Direct , has a really great image left to right whereas the HK is not near as precise. Could be the bass again affecting that, but I feel like it’s more than that.

It's possible the HK suffers from more cross-talk between the channels. This reduces imaging precision but may appear to make images larger and the soundstage wider.

Yup. That’s exactly it. The Yamaha can achieve the holographic Center image between speakers but rarely goes outside the left or right boundary’s and requires my head in perfect axis alignment. The HK plays a wider wall just outside the left right edges albeit a lot less clear and not well placed. Height remains the same but I think that’s the woofer/ speaker dispersion and not the electronics.

Which type of imaging do you prefer? HK or Yammie?

Yammie all the way. It’s so clear and precise. But needs more heft and tight bass.

I want yammie clarity but wall to wall stage. With tight bass that doesn’t muddle the image but can hit me in the chest when I want it too.

Short version, prefer the yammie.

Yeah...you need LFR1800s. Those are coming after the LFR1500s. You'll be a grandpa by then.

To get wall-to-wall soundstage in the meantime, you need more amp power. But then you might run out of speaker.

Hence the m100 research before the Black Friday sales.

I’m not waiting until I’m a grandpa!

I do recall you saying you had concerns or issues with making the m100 disappear. I’m worried about that too bc I like that effect. Guess I won’t know until I try.

I’m pretty keen to enjoy my large space and freedom of a detached home. It’s a new build so very well insulated. I’ve been testing how loud it sounds outside when it’s loud inside and it’s pretty well damped. So I’ve got the ability to really go for it and occasionally enjoy impactful music at high spl. Only have one neighbour on east side of house. Behind and to the side is green space. One neighbour across the road. I’m glad to have been patient and want to do it right the first time here.

Canes made his disappear. You've got a good chance too. M100s offer a ton of bass and maybe it won't be bloomy in your space. Work in some port plugs so you can experiment. They are very life-like sounding, very wide and deep stage with great imaging. Work in an amp too. Talk with Ian about the right amp for your space.

Good info and good advice. Thanks. Yeah I remember Canes thread vaguely. I’ll have to search it up and give it a read. Unless you’ve got it bookmarked?

My hope again is that the bass is enough ( when powered properly ) to avoid subs. Although down the road I wouldn’t be opposed to subs to further enhance or smoothen out. But the goal is to have a “simple “ 2 channel quality system that can disappear.

Back to original thought on tweeters….. maybe the best move is to just take my m60 to my brothers house and see if they do the same thing with the breakup, then we will know it’s the room for sure. I really want to help him improve his listening experience and quality. Its definitely possible.