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#279555 - 11/18/09 12:08 PM Major sub issues
Potatohead Offline
aficionado

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 670
Loc: Vancouver
First off, I'll post a link to a thread on AVS I created, which explains the problem in more detail and what I've done to try and alleviate it.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1197293

The bass in my room is just totally dead. I am getting some ok levels around the back walls near and behind my sofa, but in the center of the room or towards the screen, there may as well not even be a sub in the room. I've tried everything short of starting to throw a bunch of money at the problem.

My next option I think is some acoustical panels, but I don't know if they'll do anything with lower frequencies. The only other thing I can think of is to order an EP350 to compare and see if perhaps the SVS is just not a good match for the room, but then I either have to deal with selling the SVS or return shipping the 350.

Anyway guys, any ideas are greatly appreciated.

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#279562 - 11/18/09 12:17 PM Re: Major sub issues [Re: Potatohead]
Riker Offline
devotee

Registered: 10/16/06
Posts: 375
Loc: Ottawa, Ontario
All I can think of right now is do the sub crawl with your sub in the listening position. I have my system in the basement, concrete everywhere, so lack of bass was an issue for me as well. Now I'm running with EP500 AND another 10" sub up front. With both subs going and my main tower speakers to LARGE, and having done the sub crawl to determine the best bass sound in the room, I finaly have the amount of bass I want.

As for acoustic panels, they certainly will not increase your bass response, but they will help with echo / ringing etc.. if you have those issues.
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Acoustic Zen Adagio, Veritas center, Axiom EP500, QS8s, Anthem AVM20, MC20,Adcom GFA7400

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#279566 - 11/18/09 12:23 PM Re: Major sub issues [Re: Riker]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6789
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.

Have you done any frequency sweeps to see if you are really lacking @ certain frequencies.
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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#279567 - 11/18/09 12:28 PM Re: Major sub issues [Re: Riker]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10415
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
The problem is that the punch in your chest is not from your sub, it is usually from the mains and as you have M22's it won't happen. The chest thing is said to be around 60 -90hz and the sub is busy playing ALL low frequncies and smoothly. If you want to feel it in your chest you need to try to optimize the frequency response for around 60-80hz. I have seen this question many times, check out MikeC on AVS, he bought MANY subs looking for that chest thump only to find out he was searching in the wrong frequency range. You could possibly benefit from Hsu and their Mid Bass Module(MBM) System. . This was one reason I went to M80's, with them I get more impact than I did with M22's/sub.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#279569 - 11/18/09 12:31 PM Re: Major sub issues [Re: jakewash]
ClubNeon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3466
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
What's the height of the room? You said it is 12' wide by 19' long.

With those two anyway, I can tell you that you'll have the biggest problems at 93 Hz because of the width, and 60 Hz from the length.
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Pioneer PDP-5020FD, Marantz SR6011
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Sony PS4, surround backs
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#279570 - 11/18/09 12:32 PM Re: Major sub issues [Re: jakewash]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6789
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.

That's a very good point Jay.
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#279571 - 11/18/09 12:34 PM Re: Major sub issues [Re: jakewash]
Argon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/24/04
Posts: 1443
Loc: Oak Ridge, NC
 Originally Posted By: jakewash
The problem is that the punch in your chest is not from your sub, it is usually from the mains and as you have M22's it won't happen. The chest thing is said to be around 60 -90hz and the sub is busy playing ALL low frequncies and smoothly. If you want to feel it in your chest you need to try to optimize the frequency response for around 60-80hz. I have seen this question many times, check out MikeC on AVS, he bought MANY subs looking for that chest thump only to find out he was searching in the wrong frequency range. You could possibly benefit from Hsu and their Mid Bass Module(MBM) System. . This was one reason I went to M80's, with them I get more impact than I did with M22's/sub.


I can tell you that when I stood (with an unnamed Commander) on the flight line at NAS JAX at a Blue Angels preview several years back, the low level, low speed demo by the F14 - I had no problem feeling that in my chest. My face, legs and arms as well. I didn't have to do the crawl either - although I am sure many have at the receiving end of that awesome sight.
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"A fanatic is someone who can't change his mind and won't change the subject" Churchill

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#279573 - 11/18/09 12:37 PM Re: Major sub issues [Re: jakewash]
Murph Offline
axiomite

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 6955
Loc: PEI, Canada
Interesting. I had never heard of a Mid Bass Module. Does it get fed by the LFE channel and go first in the chain and have a built in crossover stripping the mid bass from the LFE channel before sending it to the sub or does the sub still get the full frequency load. Didn't seem clear to me from the article.
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With great power comes Awesome irresponsibility.

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#279577 - 11/18/09 12:47 PM Re: Major sub issues [Re: Murph]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10415
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
I don't know the exact working either, I just know it is out there and there are reports from those that have one that it has helped with that slam feeling. I know I had LOTS of slam with the M80s and A1400, oh how I want one...........

Just to add, I know many are looking for that slam like in a bar, if you look at the specs of those pro speakers many only play into the 30-40 hz range with a bit of a boost in the mid bass range (60-90hz) which gives them that slam(along with oooddlles of power) and believe it is a sub doing the job, but it is not. I also know there are some pro subs out there spec'd for this slam range as well.

The graphs of the PB12-NSD has a bit of a boost in the 50-60hz range, (I had one briefly but didn't like the thump it had) but your room could be killing that frequency and Chris has nicely pointed out it looks to be the case.


Edited by jakewash (11/18/09 12:54 PM)
Edit Reason: Added more info.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#279592 - 11/18/09 01:49 PM Re: Major sub issues [Re: jakewash]
Potatohead Offline
aficionado

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 670
Loc: Vancouver
 Originally Posted By: Riker
All I can think of right now is do the sub crawl with your sub in the listening position. I have my system in the basement, concrete everywhere, so lack of bass was an issue for me as well. Now I'm running with EP500 AND another 10" sub up front. With both subs going and my main tower speakers to LARGE, and having done the sub crawl to determine the best bass sound in the room, I finaly have the amount of bass I want.


It seems the concrete could be an issue for me as well. I do have all walls insulated and a proper subfloor, but maybe that is not enough. Now I wish I didn't sell my smaller Velodyne, at least to test. I have done the sub crawl with the sub in my listening position twice, same result both times.

 Originally Posted By: wid

Have you done any frequency sweeps to see if you are really lacking @ certain frequencies.


I don't know how, to be honest. I looked into this REW thing but I have no idea where to even begin. I know nothing at all about computers and sound cards. It certainly sounds like I am lacking in the 50 - 80 range though. I have my crossover on the W22's set at 80, which is where Audyssey set it. The very first time I ran Audyssey (sub in a different position) it set them at 60hz. Maybe I should lower it back to 60?

 Originally Posted By: jakewash
The problem is that the punch in your chest is not from your sub, it is usually from the mains and as you have M22's it won't happen. The chest thing is said to be around 60 -90hz and the sub is busy playing ALL low frequncies and smoothly. If you want to feel it in your chest you need to try to optimize the frequency response for around 60-80hz. I have seen this question many times, check out MikeC on AVS, he bought MANY subs looking for that chest thump only to find out he was searching in the wrong frequency range. You could possibly benefit from Hsu and their Mid Bass Module(MBM) System. . This was one reason I went to M80's, with them I get more impact than I did with M22's/sub.


Thank you, I think this just has to be the problem, there really is no other explanation. I will look into this.

 Originally Posted By: ClubNeon
What's the height of the room? You said it is 12' wide by 19' long.

With those two anyway, I can tell you that you'll have the biggest problems at 93 Hz because of the width, and 60 Hz from the length.


It's 8' ceilings, but with a bulkhead on one side which makes it about 7' which takes up about 14" of ceiling space.

 Originally Posted By: jakewash


The graphs of the PB12-NSD has a bit of a boost in the 50-60hz range, (I had one briefly but didn't like the thump it had) but your room could be killing that frequency and Chris has nicely pointed out it looks to be the case.


Is there any way to correct this? I assume not. Is it possible a different sub would change anything? I guess this mid bass module would solve it, it's just a major pain to ship stuff back to the US if it doesn't help.

Again guys, thank you for the help.






Edited by Potatohead (11/18/09 01:50 PM)

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