Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Given the choice btn side-by-side150's or M80s...

Yes I did try it after reading this article at Audioholics:

Conclusion, Rankings and Evaluation

I should clarify that I’m not saying the results of the Audioholics test prove any particular setup sounds best. IMO there are just to many factors to consider…speaker placement, room interactions, listening material, personal preference etc… to draw any conclusions about a particular persons perceived sound quality based on numbers alone.

I easily preferred the horizontal dispersion of the VP150 oriented vertically for music. Instrument and vocalist placement was more precise. However, there is something to be said for the “wall-of-sound” effect for movies it creates oriented horizontally especially sitting up close. When I tried M22 center and eventually the M80 I found that sitting up close 6’ I could hear the vertical center as separate from the mains. Moving farther away just out to 8’ eliminated that. Also arraying it vertically pulled the center of the soundstage up. Again this effect diminished with distance.

I can’t say how the vertical VP150 sounded compared to the M22 because I didn’t have the M22s back then and never thought to try it when I did. I plan to hook the VP150 up this weekend and A/B/C compare the M80/M22/VP150 something I haven’t done here in the house or with the new receiver so I’ll be sure to give it a try this time.

You're a good source of information Grunt. With so many speakers to A/B as well as the time and willingness to experiment your conclusions are fascinating to read. We all have our own preferences, but its still great to have someone like you and Efalardeau around to stir the pot from time to time!

I wish I had the funds to buy other speakers(non Axiom) to do A/B comparisons with. The only speakers I need to hear and compare from Axiom are the M50's to complete the full set and I guess the QS4 v2, I had the originals but they went back in favor of the QS8s. Dang, forgot about the M0's, looks like a few more to test out still.

I don't think I have ever seen a full writeup of your experiments with centers Dean. I am very happy that I bought the M2s for centers.

It bought me 3 things: 15Hz of extension on the bottom end over the VP150, excellent centering of dialog for movies, excellent horizontal dispersion of sound. And all that for only $40 more than the VP100.

The big down side of my setup is WAF. I doubt many spouses would accept a speaker sticking up over the display the way mine is. In my case, with no SO to worry about the decision was really a no brainer.

Over the years, I have been one who has almost continually experimented with center channel speakers and what, to me anyway, provides the most realistic presentation for either movies or music. It should be noted for my trouble I now have FOUR center channels sitting in boxes in my basement INCLUDING a VP150. What I have found is that despite their dispersion capabilities and unless they are quite large, horizontal center speakers all have the tendency to emphasize that lower midrange(300-500hz levels) and lack of upper bass, giving voices a somewhat unnatural "boxy" effect. I think we all know how positioning can change the tone considerably and Alan Lofft has written an interesting article about this very phenomenon AND also commented that M2's were a very good match with M60s or 80s.

After what seems like "decades" of experimentation, my best solution, which I just settled on recently, was one M3 on top of my monitor tilted towards my listening position. It has basically eliminated that 300-500hz emphasis and gives me somewhat more in the low end making voices sound more natural. Believe it or not and in my circumstance anyway, I found the horizontal dispersion of the M3 was more linear than the VP150!

After considerable experimentation AND expense, I believe I have finally found center channel nirvana.

Just for you Fred.

Also see (if your really bored)Comparing Speaker Configurations

Ok time for another installment of Dean needs to get a life.



I just did an A/B/C test of a M80/M22/VP150 center channels and a separate test of Audyssey vs “Pure Audio” or whatever Onkyo calls it.

For the center comparison I turned off Audyssey and set the crossovers of all speakers to 80Hz. My center channel is 10.5’ away and the mains are 11.5’ from the center of my seating. Although I could do a 4-way test with my switch if felt stacking all three speakers would put one of them way to high so I did 2 separate A/B tests sitting in my listening positions with the switch.

First I checked the SPL levels. Using the M80 as reference the VP150 at the same setting was .5dB lower and the M22 was .5dB higher at the sweet spot. Sweeping across all three seats both the M80 and M22 deviated less than .5dB. OTOH, the VP150 deviated in a range of 4dB across all three seats (about 8’ apart). The high point (1dB higher than the sweet spot) was 1’ to the left of the sweet spot while the low point (3dB lower) was in the right seat. The left seat was only (2.5dB lower).

I used all the usual stuff I’m already familiar with (Star Wars III, LOTR FOTR, Jethro Tull Live at Montreux 2003, and a well mastered Juice Newton stage performance). Probably not fair but then it wasn’t a blind test and since I’ve already trained myself on what to listen for I figured it wouldn’t matter. Actually did notice some new things though. As a reference for fidelity I also checked everything on my Sennheiser HD600s.

M80 vs VP150 (horizontal)
Male voices sound deeper (congested or chesty) on the VP150 vs the M80. Very noticeable in at the beginning of Star Wars III when Obi Wan and Anakin are talking to each other from their fighters. Also in LOTR FOTR when entering the Mines of Moria Gandalf is talking while walking off screen right and the pitch of his voice rises. Ironically this “chestyness” sometimes sounds “better” but not true to the source.

The soundstage for the VP150 is wider but less precise than the M80. This can be a nice effect for movies but I found it bad for music. Also something I notice for the first time the VP150 while wider lacked the depth or separation of sounds of the M80. In LOTR FOTR when Galadriel pours water into the “mirror,” on the VP150 I hear it but all the sound…her voice and the water pouring…are coming from the screen and the pouring just sort of tapers off. On the M80 I can hear her talking from the screen while the water pouring is coming from out in front of her voice they way it looks. And instead of the sound sort of tapering off I hear each distinct drop of water along with her voice. Later when the Balrog is rising out of a pit behind the fellowship roaring that’s mostly what I hear on the VP150. On the M80 I can distinctly hear the fellowship’s footfalls and even cloths rustling as they run toward the camera. The best analogy I can make is the difference between watching “The Fifth Element” up-converted vs Blu-ray. The first seems great until you switch to the latter.

Now for the bad news. Moving off center the VP150 became very “phasey” and directional. Sitting in the left or right seat the VP150 sounded like the sounds was coming out of a tunnel focused at the center seat and at the sides I’m just catching what wrapped around the corners. I hate to say it but this is the worst I’ve heard it sound. Not sure why but it never sounded this bad in either room of my apartment. OTOH, the M80 sounded the same across all the seating. Perhaps I’m just getting so use to the M80 center that alternatives are sounding progressively worse by comparison. Another possibility is that during all previous testing I had curtains on the walls. So I will revisit the VP150 center once the curtains are up. I’d be interested in knowing how the VP100 sounds in this regard.

M80 vs VP150 (vertical):
Exactly the same as above except both the “wall-of-sound” effect disappeared and the “phaseyness” was gone when moving off center.

M80 vs M22:
The M22 sounded almost exactly like the M80. The M80 sounds a little fuller in the mid and upper bass while I think the M22 actually does the midrange and highs just a little better than the M80. Maybe just a side effect of lower bass.

Audyssey vs “Pure Audio:”
I was so impressed that Audyssey hadn’t make my speakers sound like crap this time I hadn’t done any serious listening until now. Have to say I like what it’s doing to the spatial nature of surround sound effects and taming the bass. However, I now noticed how much it’s rolling off the top end. There a very noticeable loss of ambiance with Audyssey on vs. off. It also takes a little bit of the edge off when there is sibilance on the recording. However, when comparing the M80s to the HD600s the sibilance is that same.

Conclusions:
The VP150 and Audyssey do not IMO equal high fidelity. While the VP150s wall-of-sound effect has some plusses for spreading out the center channel and the “chestyness” has an appeal…the off center “phaseyness” is a deal breaker. For movies the tonal difference and the less precise soundstage would not likely be noticeable w/o an A/B comparison unless one had already learned what to listen for. However, for music the soundstages of the M80 and M22 are clearly superior to the VP150.

Audyssey definitely helps the surround effects seem more “holographic” and tightened up the bass from my EP500 at the cost of a significant loss of ambience in music.

Cheers,
Dean

Afterthought:
I also compared the M80 crossed at 40Hz (where the receiver set it) to the M22 and VP150 crossed at 80Hz.

Casey, the superior horizontal dispersion of the M3(and other vertical centers)is certainly believable and is one of the things that I've been suggesting for the almost 8 years that I've been here.

Nice report. Thanks again for your time and efforts Dean. I suppose I'll just have to be satisfied (which I am) with my VP150 until such a day comes along that I decide to buy an M3, M22 or M80 (not very likely unless I purchase a new home and do some rearranging of the equipment) and do some of my own A/B tests.

Those of you who have found faults with the VP150 make me wonder, why is it that Axiom put so much time and effort into developing the VP150 if an M3 or M22 does such a better job at handling center channel duties? My only conclusion would be that the masses have developed the mentality that a horizontal center channel configuration is the 'correct' way to do it. So even though that set-up has it's draw backs, Axiom did their best to put out a product that the consumers demanded (the customer is always right after all. Even if countless hours in the listening rooms down at Axiom and other speaker manufacturers have proven other wise!).

So now I'm curious, if I called the sound experts at Axiom and told them I was putting together a HT and wanted the best possible performance no matter which speakers that meant going with, I wonder if they would suggest either of these speakers that Dean and some others have found to be more ideal? In other words, I wonder if Axiom themselves would admit that some of their other speakers do a better job at center channel workhorse than their own purpose built center channel speaker?

There's some truth to that. I'm sure a lot of it IS simply because horizontal centers are what everyone sees, but the reason horizontal centers were made in the first place was so they would fit below the screen. Most people simply don't have a way to accommodate a vertical center, but you have to wonder how many more people would make the space for a vertical center if they knew it would improve the sound.

I fell into groupthink when I purchased my first set of HT speakers from Axiom and just assumed a horizontal center was appropriate. For months I never noticed anything wrong until one day by accident I did. Since then like casey01, and a few others, I’ve discovered no horizontal center that I like. I don’t think it would be so noticeable to me if the M80 and M22 didn’t sound so damn transparent.

I also think it has something to do with people perceptions. I can walk under the nose or climb up in the cockpit of one of our aircraft and know the weather radar is still on by the high pitched warble it makes or that the inertial guidance gyros are still spinning because of their high pitched wine. No one else hears these over the other equipment even when I point them out. I use to always walk point because I could notice things that no one else did.

Before you think this is neat it has a big down side in that I can’t spend much time in busy public places w/o getting a headache and what I call “brain cloud” where it feels like there’s a fog surrounding all my senses. Only way to prevent this is to spike my adrenalin which brings everything into hyper sharp focus at the expense of being exhausting to maintain.

A couple of other ways I’ve found to mitigate this is by running at moderate to high intensity inducing a “runners high.” There’s a certain plant that also accomplishes this w/o all the sweating. I also found that certain anti-histamines tune my senses down. I couldn’t make it through a date in high school w/o taking half a Contact before the date.

I can’t speak for others but in my case I’m clearly abnormal and as most people across all speaker brands have no problems with their center speakers I hope that any casual readers of my posts don’t take my impressions out of context.