Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo New W22s- where's the beef?

Hi there,

I just took delivery of a pair of W22s and have mounted them on my wall as per the instructions. I like the look of them but I gather that they must not be recommended as stand alone stereo speakers as there is a serious lack of bottom end. I had a pair of PSB Alpha bookshelf speakers that had more oomph than these.

I realize that they're probably meant to work with a subwoofer amd I have every intention of working my way up to a 5.1 system, but I was surprised nonetheless as I was planning on using them just as stereo speakers with my Denon 1610 until such time as I can rationalize getting the remainder. Anyone have any comments?

I have a pair of M22s and love their sound but wouldn’t recommend them w/o a subwoofer. The only Axiom bookshelf that is IMO designed to be used w/o a subwoofer is the M3 and it’s variants. However, going that route you trade off the flatter frequency response of the M22s. I haven’t seen a frequency response graph for the PSB Alpha but I imagine they play with it a bit like the M3 does to trick you into thinking your hearing more bass.

One problem I’ve noticed in using a speaker with a flat frequency response is that w/o the high end rolling off and/or the low frequencies being manipulated to simulate more bass they will sound “thin” compared to other speakers that do. However, it took me no time at all to appreciate the more accurate sound. But still for most things I would want to use a subwoofer with the M22s and their variants.

Welcome to the Axiom forum Abraxas.

A few things to check over.

1) Do you have the speakers wires hooked up correctly for proper polarity (not likely the problem but worth checking)

2) In your receiver settings are the W22's set to small or large. If they are set to small change the setting to large so they run full range.

3) If they still lack bass to your tastes you can apply up to a 3db boost in the bass tone controls of your receiver. Many people like to do this around here if they are not using a sub with the 22's.

4) Since they are bookshelf speaker, bass response is limited unlike a floorstander which by design can go much lower. Even so both are best paired with a subwoofer.

Hope this helps.

Cheers!

I have had the M22's for about 2 weeks now, and I love the sound that comes out of them. They excel in highs and mid-range, but they do lack in base. The only thing I have to compare them with is a Sony HTIB (home-theater in a box). I ran just the left and right channels of this in comparison to the L/R with just the M22's and, well, there just wasn't any comparison. Like comparing dirt and gold.

I've been told that running these with a SW is comparable to the M80's in sound quality, just not as loud.

Thanks for the response. From your reply it's as I guessed - I've got to admit the highs sound pretty good, but a subwoofer is definitely on the cards now.

The polarity is correct and the setting is 'large'. I'll try the bass boost, at least until I get the wall shaker

Thanks

Don't go to crazy now with an excessive setting on the bass tone controls. They can safely handle up to a +3db boost from what I remember.

The W22's may not have the same amount of low end as the M22s or any other bookshelf regardless of bass settings, the cabinets are quite a bit smaller so a sub would be a must for the on/in-wall versions of these speakers.

I would agree with jake. I don't listen to music much other than concert DVD's, but my W22's give it up around 95 hz. If I listened to more music I might be concerned as a sub is not as accurate that high, but for movies it's a non-issue for me.

This leads to the next question, which subwoofer would match the W22's better? It looks to me like it would be the EP400, because of the extended upper bass. If I were to go that route, I would probably just order the W22 and W100 in Black Oak, instead of the shiny black I really want, and put the $556 saved toward the $1100 SW.

Axiom does have a trade-in program too. So after the 30 days, you don't get full credit, but still quite a bit. You could get everything in Black Oak now, and a year or so down the road upgrade to the High Gloss Black while retaining most of your initial investment. (That's what I'm going to do.)

I would go with the EP350 it has more overall output, better for HT. The little Ep400 does an admirable job but it just doesn't move enough air for a good HT environment. Idealy 2 subs, the EP400 and EP500 would be great, the EP400 could handle the upper bass(full range) and the EP500 could be set up for 60hz and lower with it's own filter.

For my HT, I am going to use the EP500, probably, but the EP400 is for my living room with the W100 and W22 combo, because of the extended upper base. It will probably be used about 60-70% for music and 30-40% for TV/DVD/BD. I'm afraid that I would have a big hole in my music, somewhere between 100 and 500 hz if I don't.

The W22's I would imagine worst case scenario in a bad room or whatever would be able to handle 110 hz or so, so any sub that is level up to 120 would match nicely. Usually the smaller 10" ones are better for that range but don't go real low down to 20 hz and below like some larger subs, but they are best for movies anyway. Something like the EP350 or even EP500 seems to be a good compromise, maybe the 400 (or even 175) for music and 600/800 for movies and their house shattering ability.

For my setup Audyssey set my W22's crossover at 80 hz, but I have bumped them up to 100 hz to be safe.

Ok. So, here's a comparison of what's in the specs for each:

..SW.......Room.Resp...Max.SPL..Crossover
EP125.v2...25.-.150......114....60.-.120
EP175.v2...22.-.150......116....60.-.120
EP350.v3...18.-.150......118....40.-.150
EP400......17.-.150......116....40.-.150
EP500.v2...17.-.100......120....40.-.150
EP600.v2...15.-.100......122....40.-.100
EP800......12.-.150......125....40.-.150

Not sure what this chart is going to look like, but here goes nothing. According to this, it looks like even the EP125 would probably work ok for my living room.

If you plan on any movies those little drivers just don't do Ht any justice, they work for music, that is why I suggested the EP350, it has the same range and the larger driver, it works great for both. I could also recommend the Paradigm DSP 3200 or the lower 3100 as it did a respectible job with HT when I demoed it, I beleive they run upto 120hz.

Jay, the Paradigm DSPs all run up to 150hz(3100/3200/3400).

My m22 and ep350 upstairs sounds great...

Abraxas,

Did adjusting the bass tone control help at all, giving them a more "fuller" sound? Since you are working your way up to a 5.1 system one step at a time, I would recommend getting a subwoofer as your next purchase. Have fun!

Cheers!

Does anyone know of any links/threads of any sucessful/unsucessful diy subwoofer projects? I've searched here but not coming up with anything.

no, but I know elemental designs, here in Iowa, offers kits you can build if you would like. If you time it right, you could catch a race at the Newton track, built by Rusty Wallace.

Cat, there are many audio sites on the web you can check out just google "diy speakers" or "diy subwoofer". You could check out DIY Audio as well as many others you'll find by Googling. The Elemental Design subs look like a nice project as Randy mentioned.

It took me a while to find it again, but here's a distributer of audio transducers that I found months ago when thinking about building my own speakers.

http://www.madisound.com/

They have just about everything in the way of drivers and other miscellany.

Here are some more....

Speaker City

Creative Sound

Solen

Meniscus Audio

Parts Express

Unless "bottom end" referred to the very lowest bass, say the 20-40Hz octave, the comment is somewhat surprising in that Axiom stated that the design purpose was to essentially duplicate the response of the M22. My M22s(with room gain taken into account), both by ear and by meter, have strong response down to 60Hz, begin to drop off about 50Hz and have much weaker but still usable response at 40Hz. This is adequate for most music, although for pipe organ and much movie LFE a good sub is certainly highly desirable.

The W22 mid-woofers, by design, are only about 7" from the wall and the bass is reinforced by this. The published Axiom measurements for the bass specs indicate that the bass of the W22s is in fact quite good for most purposes and extends to at least 50Hz.

A +3/-9 spec would lead me to believe the 50hz is all but un-noticeable as it would be 12db lower at 50, it is there but really making you feel it in comparison to the rest of the music and at 60 it would be 6db(+/-3 from their spec) lower. I would take this as needing a 3-5 db boost in the bass tone control to 'even out' the sound.

I was there with what John is saying, Axiom states they are good down to about 60, so even say 80 to be safe, but I personally do have a drop at about 95 hz. It's possible it's just my setup for sure and it would be nice for someone else to test to see, but I think it's safe to say they will need a sub either way. I haven't seen an actual graph on them, just the published specs.

Hey Dr. House,

yeah, I turned the bass level up 2db - it did make a difference, they're tolerable now The sub will definitely be my next purchase.

I had a good resolution to a customer service issue with my new W22s - I noticed one of the speakers was buzzing and popping. I phoned Axiom and they immediately shipped me a new midrange driver unit. I intitially received my W22s on Monday of this week, found a problem the next day and received a new driver yesterday (Thursday). That makes me very happy.

Good to hear that. I had a very small issue and they fixed it in about a week. I killed a phillips screw head on my speaker stands and they sent me 3 more of them.

I also found base +2db to be the sweet spot on my M22's without subwoofer. I also occasionally set the treble to +1 depending on recorded material.

If you are still looking at a diy sub, Home Theater Shack Form has some good info and knowledgeable posters.

I found the beef.

There's a world of difference in receiver quality when it comes to bass comming out of the M22's. With the cheapest Sony receiver I heard satisfying mid and upper range, but almost nothing in the way of bass. But with the cheapest Pioneer Elite receiver, I'm hearing bass that is at least as good, if not better, than the bass that came out of the Subwoofer from my Sony Dreammachine (THIB). I have no other speakers attached to my system at this time, but I get a lot of extra bass out of the setting called "Stereo Front Stage Surround Advance Wide".

SFSSAW?

That's a mouthfull.

Would this not be a Pioneer custom sound field and logic that could have equalization and not a difference of receivers?

Put the Pioneer and 2 channel stereo no sub or a setting like Pure Direct and see if it changes the performance at all. Of course, if you like the current sound that's all that matters

I've tried all of the settings, including the pure direct settings. There is much more bass in all of the settings over the
Sony. Especially the one I mentioned above (SFSSAW) is more dramatic than the others.

Even though the wattage in the specs are the same (between the Sony and Pioneer), there is a very noticeable difference in power.

Comparing Sony STR-DH500 vs. Pioneer Elite VSX-21TXH.

I noticed the same thing when I upgraded from a mid line Sony to my Denon 1804.