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#282524 - 12/15/09 01:57 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Micah]
grunt Offline

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
Hi seeking, I hadnít mentioned anything because you seemed to have made your mind up but Adrians advice is borne out by my experience. I have both M80s and M22s. Got the M80s first thinking Iíd just get the best and be done with it. Later I picked up the M22s to try against a pair of QS8s as rear speakers for a 7.1 system. I liked the M22s so much that I couldnít send them back. They are IMO the best Axiom speaker for the money. However, I feel they do need a subwoofer to really play full range.

My M22s + sub sound about 95% as good as the M80s + sub which would have been more than enough for in my apartment. The M80 + sub combo has a little more mid/upper bass and also sounds better to me in a large room. One advantage to using a M22 + sub combo in a townhouse/apartment is that when you canít crank up your system you can just use the M22s leaving the sub and most of the offending low frequencies out. On the occasions when you can play loud turn the sub on and youíve got an awesome 2.1 or eventually surround system. Also, save some money and make your own stands. Presently my M22s are set up on milk crates as DSX wide speakers and they blend with my M80s perfectly.

One more thing you might consider if you can fit one, is getting a third M22 to use as a center channel. Vertically arrayed speakers have better horizontal dispersion characteristics than traditional horizontal center speakers. Also the best possible combination of speakers up front L/C/R are three identical ones. Using an identical center channel to your L/R mains makes sense for the same reasons using identical L/R stereo speakers does. Speakers that share a lot of audio playback between them the way the front speakers do benefit from being the same. IMO the M22 is best matching center speaker for the M80s except for another M80 others opinions may vary however.

Also, a single M22 costs a lot less than a VP150 which means you might be able to get a center speaker sooner which can be important for some movies where you might want to boost the center channel to get better dialogue especially if you want to hear the dialogue better while not blowing people away with the music and effects coming from the mains.

Depending on your room adding a center channel may also allow you to move your L/R mains farther apart which may better enhance the surround effects even using just front speakers. Doubly so if you get a processor that has any sort of simulated surround processing built in.

As to Emotiva vs Denon and Onkyo et al. I share the opinion that you are limiting yourself with the UMC-1. Itís already out of date as a processor and I donít even think itís shipping yet. If you buy a good receiver it can power your entire system unless/until you feel the need for more power. Then you can add an Emotiva 2 or 3 channel amp to power your front speakers where the extra power will really matter. Plus with a receiver if a multi-channel amp goes out at least you can still power your system until itís repaired/replaced.
3M80 2M22 6QS8 2M2 1EP500 Sony BDP-S590 Panny-7000 Onkyo-3007 Carada-134 Xbox Buttkicker AS-EQ1

#282525 - 12/15/09 02:04 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: grunt]
CatBrat Offline

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 6015
Loc: Milky Way Galaxy
Has anyone mentioned the Axiom trade up program here? Does this program even exist? I've heard others mention it, but I can't find any info anywhere. Perhaps it is something that Axiom has done for just a few customers. Could perhaps someone from Axiom answer this question for me.

#282527 - 12/15/09 02:07 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: CatBrat]
tomtuttle Offline

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8488
Loc: Tacoma
It exists. You need to CALL Axiom on the phone.
bibere usque ad hilaritatem

#282528 - 12/15/09 02:11 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: CatBrat]
EFalardeau Offline

Registered: 08/27/07
Posts: 3400
Loc: Laval, Quebec, Canada
E = MC2 = ((2M80 + VP180 + 4QS8)/(EP800 + EP500))^(ADA1500 x D2v)

#282530 - 12/15/09 02:15 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: grunt]
Seekinganswers Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 97

That is a lot of options you have provide me. They all sound great, and I like to hear that you feel the M22s + Sub combo comes in at 95% of the performance of the M80s + Sub.

The reason I have decided to eventually get the M80s is because I want to get into 2 channel music, and everyone on here says they're great for that task.

For the time being, and thanks to you all for this, I feel like my Onkyo 606 still has a lot to offer in terms of quality and power. I am not looking to bring down the house. I am starting to question my needs for the UMC-1 and will have to read up on the reviews to pass any judgments when it ships. Like I mentioned before, I am not looking for the most feature-laden receiver or pre/pro out there. I am more interested in sound quality. I have considered an Onkyo 707 as a pre/pro to use with the XPA-5 eventually, or any receiver in that price range as long as I am not sacrificing too much sound quality. I don't want to spend a lot of money in the processing department because that gets updated to frequently it would break the bank just to try to keep up.

Speakers: Energy RC-70s, RC-LCR, RC-Rs and eD A2-300 x 2.
Receiver: Marantz 6006

#282535 - 12/15/09 02:46 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Seekinganswers]
michael_d Offline

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 4195
Loc: Up yonder
Regarding my Emo comments, I should not have said anything as I donít like getting into those discussions on forums (and have refrained from doing so for a long time). They inevitably end up with hard feelings as the brand does have a large internet forum following. As you said yourself, they provide a good bang for the buck. The bulk of folks who search for A/V stuff on the net are looking for just that, bang for the buck.

I think Emo is still a fledgling company. They are trying very hard to bring a good product to market, ďa good bang for the buckĒ. I feel that they are making compromises and sacrificing quality control, beta testing, and manufacturing tolerances to meet that target Ė bang for the buck. They have had issues with their amps. More so than many other manufactures. Enough for me to see a trend. I do not like their responses to some of the problems Iíve been privy to. I find their blanket response to the M80ís to be unacceptable. They continue to blame the speaker and do not own up to their product limitations. Their audio processors are lacking functionality and I think if you search user comments, youíll see what Iím talking about. Having said all that, I believe that if Emo can weather the current economic storm, bank more investment capitol and gain a stronger footing in the market of electronics, within five years they will be a product the big boys will have to contend with.

Regarding the M22 verses M60 verses M80 discussion, you need to decide what you want. M22ís are dandy bookshelf speaker. I have a set. With a sub, they sound great for HT or Stereo. But keep in mind that they are a bookshelf. They canít compete with the towers. It is unfair to put them in the ring together. I have M80ís and have not heard M60ís. The 80ís will blow your socks off. However, I would not hesitate to sell mine and pick up a set of M60ís though. As a matter of fact, that is my current plan. For my HT, the M80ís are too tall and interfere with my screen. I am going to buy M60ís to replace the M80ís and I am not worried about that in the least bit. Now if I was in need of speakers for a gymnasium, I would stick with the M80ís. But in truth, they are overkill for most home owners.

If I were in your shoes, knowing what I know today, I would buy a set of M60ís and find a Denon 3808 or 4308 from an authorized dealer that is trying to move them off the shelf to make room for the new line of receivers. A couple months ago you could find 3808ís for about $800. I currently use a 3808 as a pre-pro. I really have no desire to upgrade or replace it other than a curiosity to try the new height and width speaker set ups. I donít wear Rolex, but Iím not strapped for cash either. If I really wanted to spend the money on high dollar separates, I would. Iím quite content with my Ďhumbleí 3808. I bought the amps to experiment. The differences I was able to hear are not significant enough for me to recommend that anyone buy them unless they have the cash burning a hole in their pocket. The 3808 drives my M80ís on its own without any issue well above a DB level that any non-hearing impaired sane individual can stand. If you go this route, instead of one of the new Denons, the only thing you will be loosing is DDPLIIZ and Audeyssy DSX (width / height). This is a new thing and user comments are mixed to whether it is worth it or not. In your case, with your room layout, height and width sound like they would be difficult to accommodate.

By the way, I am not a brand loyalist. I look for a product that meets my needs, has good customer support and is not plagued with bugs. I look for trends. When I see a product with mixed reviews and user comments, I pay close attention to those. This ďhobbyĒ is supposed to be fun. It is not fun spending time and money resolving problems instead of just pushing the power button and enjoying whatís on the screen or coming from the speakers.

I continue to recommend the Denons becuse the damn things just work, and work well.

PS: Thank you for your service. I'm a combat vet and feel for our troops in harms way.

#282538 - 12/15/09 03:02 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: michael_d]
Seekinganswers Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 97

Thank you for your services!

You give an interesting perspective on Emotiva as a company. I, too, have read the debates between he said she said concerning the M80s and the XPA-2. It really left a bad taste in my mouth, and thus, I shied away from the thought of the M80s for a while. Not because I felt like the M80s were at fault but I just didn't think I could afford anything to drive them currently. From my perusal of the debates, the M80s worked fine with many other reputable receivers, and it felt like Emotiva was trying to point the finger instead of trying to come up with a solution. Be advised, I am not talking down on Emotiva, I just find that topic to be a gray area.

I wouldn't want to kid myself in saying that the M22s are on equal footing as its bigger brothers. But from all accounts they are great speakers and inexpensive for me to jump into on my way to audio joy.

The more I read this forum the more I am sensing that a good receiver such as Denon and Onkyo and many other brands would be more than enough for most people's needs. I am getting the impression that a separate amp is more of a want than a realistic need to drive these speakers.

I have really learned a lot from everyone who have helped answered my concerns and questions. This really is one of the more helpful forums with friendly members trying to guide each other in the right path. Thanks.


Edited by Seekinganswers (12/15/09 03:05 PM)
Speakers: Energy RC-70s, RC-LCR, RC-Rs and eD A2-300 x 2.
Receiver: Marantz 6006

#282573 - 12/15/09 08:24 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Seekinganswers]
fredk Offline

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7786
Loc: Canada
I have considered an Onkyo 707 as a pre/pro to use with the XPA-5 eventually, or any receiver in that price range as long as I am not sacrificing too much sound quality.

That would be a good choice. I think companies like Emotiva are in a tight spot. The quality of electronics these days is very high as is the cost of entry. Denon and Onkyo can spread their fixed costs like R&D over hundreds of thousands of units and generate a decent profit on thin margins.

Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

#282583 - 12/15/09 09:55 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Seekinganswers]
Adrian Offline

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6880
Loc: It's all about the location.
Seeking, your concern about powering the M80s is not uncommon re the 4ohm load. I had this concern myself, a year ago, when I was looking for an AVR to power my M80 fronted HT and was assured by the members here as well as both Brent and Alan from Axiom that my choice of a Denon 2809 would be fine...and they were right. One year later, everything is fine, no issues at all. I'm sure someone has already mentioned it, but look for an AVR with pre-outs just in case you move to a much larger HT or if you really don't like your neighbours.
Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.

#282612 - 12/16/09 07:17 AM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Adrian]
Gringo Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 05/06/08
Posts: 10
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
Hi Seeking, I can't add too much to this but I just wanted to mention that I currently run a 3.0 system. I have M80's up front along with a very old Axiom Centre (not even sure what model it is anymore!) I got my M80's along with a Denon 3808 because I wanted to listen to great music but have some bells and whistles for HT as I expanded. I thought long and hard about the M60's or M80's and I know it is pretty juvenile but I went with the M80's because I didn't ever want to have that voice in my head saying "These are great...but I wonder what the M80's would sound like?".

For the record this initial setup of mine sounds senstaional and I am glad I spent my $ on fewer (but higher spec'd) parts. For what it is worth - I would getthe M80's asap and run them with your current Onkyo. When you can, upgrade the amp and so on.

One more thing...I don't know much about the EMO stuff (I am in Australia and we never see it here), but the networking of the Denon has proven to be the greatest thing since sliced bread for me. I know other brands do it as well so not just a Denon rave but I get SO much more use out of my system because of this little feature. IMO get something with networking functionality.

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