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#286782 - 01/14/10 08:15 AM Re: Cold Weather and Global Warming Thread [Re: tomtuttle]
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6331
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Disgustingly rational, as usual, Tom. ;\)

I believe we humans do have an effect on the environment. The question is my mind is, what, and how serious, is the result of that effect.

Regardless, I am in favor of reducing our dependence on fossil fuels if for no other reason than we don't have a native supply sufficient for our needs and must rely on the resources of others, some of whom would prefer we would just disappear in a puff of smoke and are likely supporting efforts to achieve that very end.

I long for the day (and, regrettably will never see it in my lifetime) when we say "thanks, but no thanks. You can drink your oil for all we care." If reducing our dependence on others has a salubrious effect on the environment, so much the better.
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#286784 - 01/14/10 08:58 AM Re: Cold Weather and Global Warming Thread [Re: Ajax]
Adrian Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6928
Loc: It's all about the location.
salubrious...."promoting health or welfare. healthful, wholesome, salutary"
uhhh, just for uhhh, those who weren't sure what the word meant.

The "Green Movement" has almost become cult-like in some circles where if you don't agree with it, or ask questions you are labelled a non-believer. I've seen and heard people like David Suzuki stating their case on the Business Network here and when asked the tough questions by the host, who was a realist and respectful of his opinion, he became noticably irritated and angry and offered NO meaningful solutions. In fact, I understand that Suzuki walked off the air when radio host John Oakley respectfully asked him some tough questions. People are looking for answers, that is why they ask questions, and don't like to be "shut-up" with rebuttals like..."well, you don't understand because you're not a climatologist"...akin to playing "the race card" designed to minimize ones opinion or make it irrelevant. I have to say it quite irritates me when these guys who are out to "save the world", don't consider the millions of people just trying to make ends meet while they charge hundreds of thousands of dollars for speeches and fly around the world in jets or wave their flags from their ships which are constantly burning up thousands of gallons of diesel fuel.

How much of this is politically motivated or is it just the latest "cause-du-jour"?
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#286796 - 01/14/10 11:34 AM Re: Cold Weather and Global Warming Thread [Re: Adrian]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8488
Loc: Tacoma
Thanks, Dean. Great story.

Excellent point, Jack. "National Security" remains a valid concept for me, and I would absolutely agree that energy independence is a huge and growing problem in that regard.

Adrian, I don't mind being labeled a "non-believer". And, though it is standard party political procedure, I do resent it when Greens (or other extremists) dismiss detractors as stupid or evil. It's "better" to be a teacher or at least a participant than simply be intellectually arrogant.

Perhaps it would be more fun - more constructive - for us to brainstorm ways in which our families could make positive changes in this area without continuing to strive for consensus over the bigger picture.

For my own part, I am trying very hard to avoid buying new stuff. I recognize that consumerism (and especially the related manufacturing) takes an enormous amount of energy. We drive our cars a LONG time, for instance.
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#286812 - 01/14/10 12:32 PM Re: Cold Weather and Global Warming Thread [Re: tomtuttle]
Argon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/24/04
Posts: 1443
Loc: Oak Ridge, NC
My Momma told me never to discuss politics or religion unless I wanted to fight.......having said that, to Tom I would say.....Right ON!


Edited by Argon (01/14/10 12:33 PM)
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#286813 - 01/14/10 12:40 PM Re: Cold Weather and Global Warming Thread [Re: tomtuttle]
grunt Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
Jack & Tom when I attended university at UW Madison I got into countless debates with “greens” and always brought up the question of why they didn’t try harder to enlist the help of the ‘hawks” (also posed the opposite question to the hawks) seeing as their goals could be complementary if we reduced out dependence on imported energy. No one could ever give a rational answer.

My experience there supports Adrian’s assertion of the cult like nature of many of these people. For anyone interested in this version of groupthink I highly recommend reading Thomas Sowell’s book:

The Vision of the Anointed: Self-Congratulation as a Basis for Social Policy

Thomas Sowell is an easy interesting read. I even went to see him speak at U.W. Madison. However, a group of freedom loving open minded lefties attended just so they could shout him down when he tried to speak. The university didn’t stop them because they were exercising their right to free speech. I guess Mr. Sowell and the group sponsoring him weren’t.

Don’t read me incorrectly. I despise the far right as much as the far left as IMO they are exactly the same in their thinking due to similar social psychological motivations. I read a paper done by some researchers at a Mid Western university (can’t remember were) in the 1980s in which they ostensibly re-conducted a psychological survey from the 1930 to gauge how responses changed from one era to another . In reality they were looking at how political affiliation effected the scoring of the respondents. They found that as with most things people fell along a standard curve with the left and right political extremes scoring equally high. What they didn’t tell the respondents was the that the test they took was a screening examination for officer candidates in the Schutzstaffel

Please note that I am not suggesting that everyone who believes/supports a particular cause fits into the above categories. Just that a significant enough number of people do to scare the hell out of me.
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#286833 - 01/14/10 01:18 PM Re: Cold Weather and Global Warming Thread [Re: grunt]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8488
Loc: Tacoma
Jeez, Dean, I didn't know they admitted your ilk at Madison. ;\)

Thanks for the tip on the Sowell book! I completely agree with you about being scared spitless by the extreme left AND the extreme right.

I agree with your Momma, Argon. It was with no small amount of trepidation that I chose to participate in this discussion. But, we are largely a civil bunch, and I do enjoy learning from everyone.
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#286836 - 01/14/10 01:23 PM Re: Cold Weather and Global Warming Thread [Re: tomtuttle]
Adrian Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6928
Loc: It's all about the location.
Who wants to be LEADAH of the EXTREME MIDDLE?
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#286837 - 01/14/10 01:37 PM Re: Cold Weather and Global Warming Thread [Re: tomtuttle]
madjak Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 91
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Dean,

Thanks for the book tip. Personally I avoid talking about the left or the right, as I find it too constrictive doing so. What I can't tolerate is totalitarianism (from either end of the scale).

RE: Cult like impressions of the green movement. Without sounding too much like a nutter, I do think the environmental movement of old has been hijacked by some totalitarian type forces (left or right, I can't tell). When we have political figures talking about the need to suspend democracy and so forth, my BS meter goes berserk.

Tom, I agree completely. The one good thing I have seen come out of what I consider to be a fraud has been that people are actually giving more thought into what actually goes into producing what they buy. The end of the disposable society? I hope so.

Here's a neat psuedo science experiment for you all. Get a glass of water and put some ice cubes in it. Let the ice melt. Did the water level rise? Nope. Why? because ice has more volume than the water used to create it (talk to geologists and they'll explain how this effect actually breaks rocks apart over time).

So the melting ice caps will result in a 60 metre rise in sea levels? Huh?
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#286849 - 01/14/10 02:22 PM Re: Cold Weather and Global Warming Thread [Re: madjak]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10420
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
I seem to recall it isn't the ice already floating in the water they are concerned with, I would hope as scientists they are aware of the effect of volume displacment. IIRC, it is the Antarctic ice cap and the Glaciers not in the water, this is where some scientists say the rise in sea levels will come from.

I don't think I have ever heard anything about a 60M rise in sea levels though, more like 5M, just enough to wipe out most of the coastal regions and islands we know now.
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#286850 - 01/14/10 02:58 PM Re: Cold Weather and Global Warming Thread [Re: madjak]
grunt Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana

Socialists like my money even more than capitalists. ;\)

Besides it’s a land grant institution so it doesn’t give them much of a choice. They must even allow ROTC on campus.

I rather enjoyed attending that school after the initial shock of how narrow minded and egotistical academia had become in the years since I’d been gone. I loved eviscerating the lefties’ reasoning every chance I got. Most of their arguments were based on emotion rather than reason plus they always made the mistake of underestimating my knowledge and “real world” experience because I was just a “beach storming blockhead” or “baby killer” in their eyes. Add to that I’d been debating politics with people far older than me and winning since I was about 8 years old and those poor under-educated U.S. saps didn’t stand a chance.

I think the stupidest thing I ever saw there had to do with dwarves and parking meters. The city council, in response to complaints from 3 little people spent $150,000 to lop a couple feet off every down town parking meter because these three people complained they couldn’t reach high enough to use them. When some people complained and asked why they didn’t just issue them parking passes and allow them to pay on an honour system the response was “that treating them like that would make them feel different from other people.”

 Originally Posted By: madjak

Thanks for the book tip. Personally I avoid talking about the left or the right, as I find it too constrictive doing so. What I can't tolerate is totalitarianism (from either end of the scale).


When I use to discuss politics with people, mistakenly thinking most people were receptive to others’ ideas and reasoned arguments, I often used a piece of paper to illustrate your point of left/right totalitarianism. I’d draw a standard curve on the paper with the horizontal axis representing the left to right political spectrum. I’d then roll it so the left/right edges were touching and explain that the real political divide in this country is not between the left and right but rather between the totalitarians at the extremes and the majority in the middle who just want to be left alone.

It’s interesting how group dynamics effect organizing for collective action and how it often favors these small radical minorities allowing them to wield far more political power than there numbers should indicate. Mancur Olson covers this topic well in his book The Logic of Collective Action. "The logic" is a rather dry read so if interested in his theories his book The Rise and Decline of Nations: Economic Growth, Stagflation, and Social Rigidities is more accessible.
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