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#304961 - 05/05/10 11:17 AM denon 4310 - go for height or width in front or no
chapin99 Offline
buff

Registered: 04/21/06
Posts: 41
Loc: South Carolina
Hi, all.
Haven't hooked it up yet, but the 4310 arrived yesterday. Will play with it this weekend. I was wondering if you have any opinions/experience with the new front height and/or width channels? I currently use the VP150 center, QS8s sides, M80s front and EP500 sub with M22s for rears in 7.1 config. I have read that the impact is greater with extra front channels. Should I move my rears to front and if so, for front height or width (I believe you only get to choose one). Also, what would be the best placement if moved up front - wider than m80s, sitting on top of them, etc.? Thanks if you have any suggestions or ideas here. I understand that you have to redo the whole audyssey setup if you change, so would like to try just one (or none) at first and live with it for while. Which might be best in your opinion? Thanks!
Laura

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#304962 - 05/05/10 11:19 AM Re: denon 4310 - go for height or width in front or no [Re: chapin99]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16437
Loc: Ben Lomond, California
I'd definitely try moving your M22s from the rear and test them in the front width or height slots. If you really like the improvement, then you can buy another pair of speakers to fill out the system.
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#304965 - 05/05/10 12:28 PM Re: denon 4310 - go for height or width in front or no [Re: pmbuko]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 4191
Loc: Up yonder
Grunt has played with this quite a bit. He'll be able to give you 'real' advice. I have nothing of any value to give you.

Having said that, from what I've read (as I have not heard, yet), the two have distinctly different sonic characteristics and have very different effects. From what I've gathered by summing all the opposing opinions, is that there are very strong opinions from both camps thinking either the height or the width, or the combination of both is best.

So in other words, you'll get a bunch of opinions which will not help you much. You're better off just trying each and seeing what you prefer.
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#304966 - 05/05/10 12:42 PM Re: denon 4310 - go for height or width in front or no [Re: pmbuko]
grunt Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
I’ve tried out both wide and height speakers on my Onkyo 3007 and found that the wides usually do more for the soundstage than rears but IMO it’s very room dependent as to which will help the most.

The M22s work perfectly as wide speakers for the M80s that’s what I’ve been using, but don‘t work as well as height speakers. IMO the best height speakers are the QS speakers as all the sound coming from the height channel is ambient.

What is the size of your room and the layout of your seating? It might be easier to guess which will sound better know that however, the only real way of knowing for sure is to experiment with the speaker positions. With the speakers you have already you could try moving the M22s up to the wide position. If you like how they sound up there you could try moving your QS8s slightly behind your seating if not already there to help cover the rear soundstage with the M22s missing.

Does your Denon 4310 work like my Onkyo 3007 where I can run a normal 7.1 system with rears but have to chose between wide or height? Or do you have to choose between rears, wides, or heights?

Cheers,
Dean
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3M80 2M22 6QS8 2M2 1EP500 Sony BDP-S590 Panny-7000 Onkyo-3007 Carada-134 Xbox Buttkicker AS-EQ1

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#304978 - 05/05/10 01:44 PM Re: denon 4310 - go for height or width in front or no [Re: grunt]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10415
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
IIRC, the 4310 is like the 3007, the 4810 allows for all channels.
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#304983 - 05/05/10 02:14 PM Re: denon 4310 - go for height or width in front or no [Re: jakewash]
chapin99 Offline
buff

Registered: 04/21/06
Posts: 41
Loc: South Carolina
Thanks y'all! I'm going to try the width first and probably only. I can't move the QS-8s as they are across from each other, but one is on the edge of what becomes a back short hall to the kitchen (so no room) and they work perfectly now to the sides of the sofa and a main chair. Also, I listen to 2-channel for music, so the width wouldn't hurt that. I wonder how it would be with 5.1 channel SACD's and such? Wouldn't the wide channels not come into play? I would think the sound would be fuller on movies and tv with wide. I've never thought the extra two rears have made that much of an improvement, so nothing to lose in this endeavor. I just hope the first firmware update goes well, that all is silent when I set up Audyssey, and things go smoothly. Thanks again for the great knowledge base here! I also appreciate those who may not have heard, but read - still gives me a nice shortcut!
Laura

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#304985 - 05/05/10 02:28 PM Re: denon 4310 - go for height or width in front or no [Re: chapin99]
grunt Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana

 Originally Posted By: chapin99

I wonder how it would be with 5.1 channel SACD's and such? Wouldn't the wide channels not come into play? I've never thought the extra two rears have made that much of an improvement, so nothing to lose in this endeavor


You can set your receiver to use the wide channels or not so yes you can try them out with 5.1 SACD’s. I generally don’t use them for most music except for live concert DVD/SACDs, but that’s just my personal preference. I find they work best for movies and TV especially in scenes were there is a lot going on around the whole scenes like on crowded streets, in rooms with lots of people. The wides come into play more than the height speakers do, and usually more than the rear speakers. It can seem a little subtle at first but then if you turn them off their absence is very noticeable when you loose that enveloping sound they give.

I generally agree that the rear speakers are overrated especially if using QS8 surrounds. However, I’ve found it’s very room/setup dependent. There are situations where rear speakers make a big difference in filling a gap in the rear soundstage depending on how the side surrounds are setup.

Unfortuanatly it’s hard to generalize to much about what works best since very few setups are the same. In a perfect room with optimal placement I would say that wide speakers win every time and that heights just slightly edge out the rears but it’s almost a tossup especially as more 7.1 tracks are coming out. However, when there are ambient sounds like rain, wind and echos the height speakers are much better than the rears.
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3M80 2M22 6QS8 2M2 1EP500 Sony BDP-S590 Panny-7000 Onkyo-3007 Carada-134 Xbox Buttkicker AS-EQ1

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#304999 - 05/05/10 04:57 PM Re: denon 4310 - go for height or width in front or no [Re: grunt]
HTGEEK Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/20/10
Posts: 96
How far above the front speakers should you place your "height" speakers? Should they be directly above or set slightly to the inside of the front speakers...

I have the 4810.

Thanks.

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#305041 - 05/05/10 10:14 PM Re: denon 4310 - go for height or width in front or no [Re: HTGEEK]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10621
Jeff, they should be several feet(limited by ceiling height, of course)directly above the mains, so that a height effect is realized at the listening position.
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#305079 - 05/06/10 02:18 AM Re: denon 4310 - go for height or width in front or no [Re: HTGEEK]
grunt Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
 Originally Posted By: HTGEEK
How far above the front speakers should you place your "height" speakers? Should they be directly above or set slightly to the inside of the front speakers...

I have the 4810.

Thanks.


Audyssey has very specific positioning guidelines for their DSX setup. The recommended position for the height speakers is 45 degrees off center, outboard of the corresponding mains and elevated 45 degrees above ear level.

http://www.audyssey.com/technology/dsx.html

Obviously few rooms are perfect enough to allow for “ideal placement. When I tested things in my room I found that even though Audyssey recommends direct radiating speakers in all positions that QS8 speakers sounded better as height speakers than the M22s. Also, I found the height speakers sounded better spread out to 45 degrees even though in my room that meant mounting them on the side walls instead of the front wall. Both the M22s and the QS8s sounded more enveloping spread out the recommended 45 degrees and outboard of the mains.

Also I found no difference in the quality of the sound coming from the heights whether the QS8s were mounted facing the listen possition or flat against the wall facing each other. That made mounting simple because I just used the supplied “T” bracket. OTOH the M22s needed to be angled toward the listening position to eek out their best performance as height speakers.

Obviously this is just my 2 cents, YMMV and all that.

Cheers,
Dean
_________________________
3M80 2M22 6QS8 2M2 1EP500 Sony BDP-S590 Panny-7000 Onkyo-3007 Carada-134 Xbox Buttkicker AS-EQ1

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