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#303287 - 04/25/10 11:38 PM Re: how well does a 3.0 HT work and sound? [Re: grunt]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7786
Loc: Canada
Given your budget, I would agree with Jay. Go for the M22. I believe Johnk, who listens to a lot of classical, started of with the M22 and added a sub later. The center channel should really clean up dialog for movies. I don't know how it would work for cable. You would have to use one of the formats that extracts dialog from the left and right channels. Probably works well.
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#303431 - 04/27/10 08:34 AM Re: how well does a 3.0 HT work and sound? [Re: fredk]
schizm42 Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 10/30/08
Posts: 24
I went with a 3.1 in my apartment building (M22 + EP 175 + crappy center that will be replaced one I get more $$)

I use auralex stuff to help isolate the sound / help keep neighbor complaints down (it actually helps a LOT in an apartment building to have a subdude + mopads. I highly recommend them if you're in an apartment)

When I was at my previous apartment, I had a pair of M60s. (no center, but I never felt the need for one with my m60s)

given both setups, i prefer the M60s by themselves (because i am constantly listening to music), but action movies + videogames sound *much* better with my current setup.

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#303466 - 04/27/10 11:35 AM Re: how well does a 3.0 HT work and sound? [Re: schizm42]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10420
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
A dedicated center channel does appear to make dialogue easier to hear , especially when you bump the sound level for that channel up more than the mains, so adding a center could be more beneficial than surrounds, especially for TV, although I love my full 5.1 system for TV, movies and music.
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Jason
M80 v2
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#303638 - 04/28/10 10:49 AM Re: how well does a 3.0 HT work and sound? [Re: jakewash]
axiomoholic Offline
veteran

Registered: 01/20/10
Posts: 110
Adding a center channel will, generally, improve sound. But I put my left, right, center money into just a left and right. Paired with a reciever that does good phantom processing, I think my l/r system beats a system with lesser l/r and a center - for movies, and especially for music.

At least that's how I choose to spend my money...

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#305060 - 05/05/10 10:56 PM Re: how well does a 3.0 HT work and sound? [Re: grunt]
unclebob Offline
regular

Registered: 04/23/10
Posts: 5
Hi all, again, thanks for your replys. I'm still searching.

Adrian - Did check out AVU, they had an old Axiom speaker sitting in their showroom but said it had been there for years and no one knew where ir came from!!! Anyway they flogged Paradigm, did not get any quote. Then went to a higher end audio store in Toronto area and did get a quote. The DSP3100 was $575 when included with their package. Whole thing with Mini Monitor mains, Atom rear and 1910 receiver was app $2000 + tax.
Went there looking for sub price but they too flogged Paradigm and sort of poo pooed Axiom indicating they were too small a firm and really could not hold a candle to all the R&D that Paradigm did.
I must say their Monitor 7 floor sounded much fuller then the Mini Monitor but more expensive. They did not mention ADP190 surrounds and instead quote Atoms for this.

I appreciate what you and Grunt say about surrounds. I'll look hard into solving the wire/carpet problem.

Grunt - Thanks so much! Most here echo your thoughts on the M22 + sub as a great combination. What bugs me is having to pay for the stands and then adding a sub. So I'm thinking M60 no sub/centre but with QS4/8 if wiring resolved.

Micah - both you and Grunt seem to stress the sub with M22 so still scratching my old bald head on that one.

To add to the quandry, I called Axiom and spoke to a rep (Brent).
I explained my room and as soon as I mentioned M60 he jumped on it but also said I needed a center (VP100) as we do watch a lot of TV but not a sub with M60. He may well be right.

So now what? I was trying to keep the setup ~ $2k and use the Axiom outlet. Any other thoughts out there??? One of my concerns is total overkill with too much sound.

One other thing - how big a deal is it to hook all these components up? My buddy bought a HTIB from Costco for $400 and spent another $600 for a Harmony and the Geek Squad to hook it all up.

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#305068 - 05/05/10 11:30 PM Re: how well does a 3.0 HT work and sound? [Re: unclebob]
Adrian Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6926
Loc: It's all about the location.
I had a similar experience with AVU. Their bread and butter is Paradigm so that's what they try to push...nothing wrong with that, as they are a fine speaker, it's just that you can get a "similarly good" set up from Axiom for less money. Many of these dealers are threatened by internet direct(ID) companies because it removes the middle man(them). I auditioned the Monitor 7's, 9's, and 11's as well as the Studio 100's...to me, the 7's were very lacking compared to the others, kind of thin sounding with little bass. The 11's and Studios were nice but the cost of them(Studios) was around what I wanted to pay for ALL my speakers. I found the Axioms and Paradigm Studios to sound quite similar....detail, imagery, bass.

I believe you'll be happy with either set-up, M60's/no sub or M22/with sub. Although you emphasized "TV", when you hear these speakers, I'm confident you'll start growing your music collection in rapid succession.

Reg set-up...the guys here are great, they helped myself set-up my system just as they have with many others. Heck, if you buy a Denon, these guys will be your best friends(unlike the Denon Manual)
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#305082 - 05/06/10 03:25 AM Re: how well does a 3.0 HT work and sound? [Re: Adrian]
grunt Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
 Originally Posted By: unclebob

To add to the quandry, I called Axiom and spoke to a rep (Brent).
I explained my room and as soon as I mentioned M60 he jumped on it but also said I needed a center (VP100) as we do watch a lot of TV but not a sub with M60. He may well be right.


 Originally Posted By: unclebob

Micah - both you and Grunt seem to stress the sub with M22 so still scratching my old bald head on that one.


IMO for just watching TV and light classical the M22s or M3s alone should do a fine job. For movies or music with substantial bass you would want to use a subwoofer to get the full effect.

The M60s would overall sound better than the M22s without a subwoofer IMO even for TV and light classical as well as for the occasional movie because they will have more bass. As long as you don’t plan on watching lots of action movies and trying to recreate the “theater” level bass feeling then you shouldn’t ever need a subwoofer with the M60s. If making or buying inexpensive stands for the M22s locally is not possible then the M60s are a much more attractive option.

Unless you plan on having people sitting off center from the screen then it’s my opinion a center speaker is not necessary in the same way it’s not necessary for stereo listening . I almost never used a center speaker in my apartment since I almost always sat in the center seat. The advantages of using a center speaker are that it anchors the dialogue and vocals to the screen for those sitting off center. Additionally, it allows you to control the volume of the dialogue and vocals separately so they can be turned up without having to the everything up often making the rest of the sound too loud. However, most receivers have a night mode or other feature that compresses the dynamic range making it easier to hear the soft passages without the loud passages being to loud.

 Quote:

One other thing - how big a deal is it to hook all these components up? My buddy bought a HTIB from Costco for $400 and spent another $600 for a Harmony and the Geek Squad to hook it all up.


It‘s not a big deal to hook things up. Denons are a little less user friendly to set up than Onkyo in my opinion but even they aren’t a big deal if you have someone to talk you through any sticking points. I bought my speakers wire a Lowe’s. Wire might cost you a little more if you get something special to run under the carpets then I would go with something like Blue Jeans cable. Places like Lowe’s and Home Depot sell cable guides that can be run along the corners of a wall or along baseboards and look ok. For the longest time I just put thick throw rugs over the cables running to the back of my apartment and never knew they were there, but that option could be tough depending on the room layout. I’m sure others will have better suggestions on how you could run the wire for surrounds.
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#305140 - 05/06/10 03:05 PM Re: how well does a 3.0 HT work and sound? [Re: grunt]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10420
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
I second what grunt just said.

22s will work for just about eveerythig unless you want some more bass, then you either need to add a sub or get the M60s. If you want to watch movies and really feel the LFE, then you will need a subwoofer regardless of what speaker you get. I find a dedicated center makes dialogue a little easier to hear as you can adjust the center channel volume up a little more than the mains.
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Jason
M80 v2
VP160 v3
QS8 v2
PB13 Ultra
Denon 3808
Samsung 85" Q70

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#305718 - 05/09/10 09:46 PM Re: how well does a 3.0 HT work and sound? [Re: jakewash]
unclebob Offline
regular

Registered: 04/23/10
Posts: 5
This whole speaker thing is driving me nuts - most (all) of you seem rational about this sort of thing so no doubt have been through the ever twisting maze edging up and up the never ending cost incline.

Here is my latest chapter.

The super in our building looked at my floors and said no problem to hide the wires, worst case $100 to have prof carpet people fix it if things got kind of untucked.

Now I can look at surrounds without fear of wife. But what to get? A post by DANMAGICMAN7 compared QS4/8 and said no question the 8's are the only choice of the two. Actually could not find his post here but found a link on a dedicated Axiom thread at Blue-ray? Anyway, the 8's plus stand are $850+T.

Everybody seems to forget about stands around here and they are not cheap. Also QS stands are unique.

Now getting to the meat of the matter. The same DAN above also compared M60 and M22, great job BTW, and these are what I am considering at this point in the maze. My issue is cost now (lower) versus long term satisfaction and not having to tweak the whole system - just want to enjoy the sound.

Price wise the M60 is $900, the M22 are $424 + app $200 stands + $ app $600 sub = $1224. Sub is either Axiom 375?, Paradigm DSP3100 $575, or SVS PB10 $579 - any thoughts on which sub would be better? At this point the M60 is $300 cheaper but not sure full set up wise which is best.

In addition to all that - the dreaded center channel! I think we do need one as wife watches a lot of TV (Y&R, Corriestreet). If I lay the speaker beneath the stand on the credenza thingy I will have to lift the TV 2-3 inches, not a big deal but pain in the ass. What would fit and look good would be an M2 or M3 or VP100 ON END in the intended speaker compartment in the cabinet, vertical space is limited. Is this reasonable (especially the VP on end) and would any/all blend with either M60 or M22?

Receiver - I really have not looked at these and only mentioned Denon 1910 as this was in my original quote for $650. COSTCO has a Marantz SR 5004 for $700. Any thoughts or suggestions in this area?

I assume the speaker packages from Axiom do not include stands?

When I first started out looking at improving the sound from the TV and a music listening upgrade, I did not think it was a big deal. The first quote of $2000 really made me blink twice. Now it looks like I'm well beyond that especially with tax.

Really cannot stand the TV sound, so have to do something. Big issue for me seems to be M60 vs M22, surrounds should be in but what kind, and center - phantom or real. I think I am getting too caught up in all this so need some rational thinking from you.

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#305731 - 05/09/10 11:18 PM Re: how well does a 3.0 HT work and sound? [Re: unclebob]
Adrian Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6926
Loc: It's all about the location.
Bob, are the walls drywalled in your apt(some condos are not, I understand). The Qs come with a T-bracket, as long as you can get a couple of screws into something solid in the wall OR use 3-4 screws into some wall plugs, you should be fine. No need for stands unless there's absolutely no way you can attach the included T-bracket to the wall. It's nice to hide the wires in the wall for the Qs, but certainly not necessary(mine aren't hidden). You could also use Axiom's flat wire as an option too.

Speaker stands aren't included with the packages, they are extra.

I think you can get a better deal on the DSP3100 if you haggle a bit, although I understand the DSP subs have been upgraded since last year when I priced them out, so maybe they've gone up.

The QS8s have a power and range advantage over the QS4s, but either one would be an excellent surround. You may not need the extra power of the QS8 over the 4, but I've always felt the 8 was the better value(on paper at least).
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