Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Cable questions

Hey Sully,

Sorry about this mess of a discussion here. I believe that quality makes a difference in almost anything. Anybody who says "apples is apples and electrons is electrons" is oversimplifying things. The path of electrons depends substantially on the type and quality of meterials used, and in some cases can be affected by interfering signals if not properly shielded.

A rule of thumb has been to spend about 5-10% of your system cost on cabling, if you believe that cables are a component like anything else in the system. I find it amusing that after all the discussion about Axiom denying speaker break-in and the importance of audio cables, they finally came out with their own line of cables! My M22 instruction manual actually says to use "generic 14 gauge speaker wire," or something similar.

In response: a few years ago I started out with some cheap 16 or 18 gauge speaker cable for my mains. I lived with that for a month or so. Then I walked into an audio shop and bought some of their cheapest cables: Tara Labs Prism Omni ($.85 / foot). They looked pretty thick, at 14 gauge. After installing them I noticed a very tangible smoothing of the frequency response; the high frequencies in particular were calmed substantially. I was always sensitive to the treble with my Paradigm Mini Monitors, as they turned out to be pretty bright.

Audio guys will tell you that the cheaper cables are designed to be more forgiving of lesser equipment, so they might roll off the highs a bit early. By now I believe it's good to avoid the super-cheap, and to go for lower end "hifi" stuff; you don't want cables to be the weak link in the chain of a multi-kilobuck sound system!

have fun,
Cooper

Hi Cblake, Sully,

I would point out that Axiom makes no claims about our cables improving sound quality, and since I wrote the text (as well as the advice in the M22 manual to use generic 14-gauge speaker wire), and act as an advisor and consultant to Axiom, I've pasted the relevant text from the Axiom cable page on the site for you all to read:

"Copper speaker cables and interconnects have no 'sound' of their own."

"Indeed, some exotic cable manufacturers claim that their overpriced wire will actually improve the electrical signals! Not so -- as long as the copper is 99.9999% pure, there is little or no resistance, and the connections are electrically sound, then the cables will carry your signals from source to destination without degradation."

"Axiom offers a full range of high-quality cables and interconnects that feature robust mechanical construction and impeccable electrical characteristics."

"High-value, high-end cables - with no hype." - Ian Colquhoun, president and founder, Axiom.

(For the record, Axiom's bulk 12-gauge speaker cable has a measured electrical resistance of 0.003 ohms per foot, which is electrically and audibly insignificant.)

Now, I entirely understand the urge of audio enthusiasts to attribute "musical" or even poetic qualitites to electrical cables. This is a wonderful hobby, and we're all trying to improve the fidelity and reality of musical reproduction in the home, but scientific fact and laws of physics cannot be ignored. I am not suggesting that using 22-gauge high-resistance cable will not introduce changes that can be measured and may be audible with musical programming.

However, after years of participating in controlled double-blind listening tests at one of the world's most sophisticated acoustical laboratories (the National Research Council in Ottawa, Canada), I have NEVER detected audible differences between 14-gauge/12-gauge generic copper speaker cables and many so-called "exotic" and expensive branded cables, some as thick as a garden hose and costing $1,500 for 2 meters. Nor did my experienced colleagues hear any differences.

It was in my interest, and in the magazine I edited in Canada for 13 years (Sound&Vision) to hear differences in cables. Cable advertising is a big source of revenue for any audio/video magazine. But none of us heard differences, so I stated these results in the magazine. Needless to say, we never received any cable advertising. That may have been a foolhardy editorial stance on my part, since the magazine eventually ceased publication for lack of ad revenues, but as a journalist and editor, I couldn't have slept at night had I reported any differently to readers and subscribers.

When you remove the inherent psychological biases of price, brand, and physical appearance of cables from the equation, the alleged audible differences evaporate.

Regards,

I applaud your honesty sir. It's greatly appreciated.

It has to be said at least once a year i think.
Is that what we are up to?
One cable discussion a year?
Hmm, maybe i should be turning the page on my calendar more often than once every other holiday.

In reply to:

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A rule of thumb has been to spend about 5-10% of your system cost on cabling

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And do you know who came up with that rule of thumb? Cable manufacturers.

It reminds me of deBeer's guideline for how much to spend on an engagement ring: just 2 months salary. (I admit I fell for this one -- but she loved it, and look where I am today. )

(sigh)
Cable manufacturers are not where I get my information. They will tell you that some people spend up to 50% of their system cost on cables; now that is ridiculous.

In fact, I think spending obscene amounts of money on stereo equipment is foolish to start with. Plenty of people who buy $20 radios think they have great sound. Plenty of people who buy HT-inabox think they have great sound. Plenty of people who buy Axiom think they have great sound. Plenty of people who have a $5000 turntable and $500 interconnects think they have great sound.

The only thing more foolish than investing all the money that we do into home theater equipment is convincing oneself that there is no difference. And the inability to hear the difference between two components does not prove anything. What you choose to believe in the absence of evidence is up to you and your ears.

The question is whether I am too open-minded or some of you are too close-minded. My cabling is cheaper than Axiom's stuff, yet I leave it up to my ears to decide in the future, not solely my intellect.

-Cooper

I hate jumping into these cable threads but this just stood out to me...

In reply to:

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And the inability to hear the difference between two components does not prove anything.

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If you can't hear a difference, and it's been pretty safely established that you can't measure a difference...what the hell is the difference? Seems pretty clear that if you can't measure it, and you can't hear it, then for all practical purposes, there is not difference.

Please note, I'm not saying there is or isn't but your argument made no sense.

I apologize for inducing that sigh.

I completely agree with your reasoning. There's a market level for everyone's tastes.

The placebo effect has been scientifically validated over and over again. If you believe cables make a difference, you're going to hear that difference -- thus the expense is justified. And hearing that difference strengthens the belief. It's a feedback loop that, in effect, reinforces the belief with each subsequent audition.

Science attempts to explain reality, but it neglects to take into account the power of the human mind to create its own reality.

The key here is who is listening. Many, many people claim to hear a difference in audio cables, myself included. If you can't hear a difference in audio equipment, then the upgrade is a waste of money.

Generally speaking, it is impossible to prove that "you can't measure a difference," but it is possible to prove that a certain group of people can consistently detect a difference. If I run 1,000 experiments trying to show that people can hear speaker cable differences, and none of them succeed, then I have proven nothing. Yet with a single successful experiment I could prove that at least some people could detect the difference.

This is purely a matter of statistical and scientific methodology, particularly regarding the "null hypothesis," and has nothing to do with speaker cables or audio equipment.

-Cooper

Personally, I'm offended when people say that, "Well, you can't hear the difference, so don't spend the money." I wasin an audio place once, and said I didn't realy like the Paradigm Studio 100s, that I didn't find them to be much better than the Monitor 9s (not back to back listening, but the 100s just didn't impress me. Sorry). And the dude said in a snotty tone of voice, "Well, then, I guess you should just get the nines." And looked at me funny. I'm not saying that you're acting like that, but it did remind me of this experience. Just 'cause you think you can hear something I can't, doesn't mean that your ears are better or that you are more in tune with the spheres.