You are not logged in. [Log In]


Forums » General Discussion » Advice from Axiom Owners » Vp 150 and Vp180 question

Page 3 of 3 < 1 2 3
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#310031 - 06/10/10 11:01 AM Re: Vp 150 and Vp180 question [Re: bdpf]
BlueJays1 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 4116
Loc: Porch,enjoying Bombay Sapphire
 Originally Posted By: bdpf
Thanks John and Dr. It's interesting to see how you guys have different approaches. I will definitely buy a SPL meter at least just to double check Audyssey's settings.
I there a way, without spending tons of money on equipment, to measure the frequency response in my room. I remember seeing in some thread people being able to create a graph of their frequency response for their sub. I would like to do something similar for my fronts.



Here is a quote from Jim Salk that I like very much. He runs Salk Signature sound. I take more of tradationalist approach that falls more in line with manufacturers that produce quality speakers.

 Originally Posted By: salk

OK...here are a few randomly related thoughts.

Imagine this scenario...

We work very hard to turn out an absolutely gorgeous pair of speakers. The owner, wanting to get the best performance possible out of them, rushes out and purchases a Radio Shack SPL meter. He locates a table of calibration corrections on the internet and carefully makes measurements, applies the corrections and plots a graph. It looks terrible. He thought the speakers sounded great when they arrived, but the measurements indicate something is terribly amiss. He contacts us in panic. His speakers are certainly defective and he has the graphs to prove it.

"How do they sound?", I ask? "They sound fine," he responds.

If he had just avoided that Radio Shack purchase, he could blissfully enjoy his speakers. The problem isn't with his speakers. The problem is with his measurements. But at least on a temporary basis, it ruins his listening experience.

Unfortunately, this is a common occurrence and one we have had to deal with far more often than we would like.

Here's another...

A person uses a speaker measuring system to measure his speakers. The bass response is terrible! It falls off early and there are ugly peaks and valleys in the response. There must be something dramatically wrong.

So I ask how the measurement was done. He indicates it was done at the listening position. He goes on to say that no matter where in the room he takes the measurements, the graphs vary somewhat, but not that much. There is clearly a problem.

I explain to him that he was measuring the room. Unless you take near field measurements at the driver, there is no way to obtain accurate measurements below about 200Hz. If the measurement times are long enough to measure the bass response from the listening position, you are also measuring the room.

Room measurement tools like REW (and even a Radio Shack SPL meter) can be very useful in terms of optimizing your room. But they will not provide an accurate indication of the performance of a speaker. For that you need a quality speaker measurement system and a well-calibrated measurement microphone. And you also need a good bit of time to learn proper techniques for using these tools.

Too often, these tools do more harm than good. Improper measurement technique and a failure to understand how these tools work can cause you to needlessly lose confidence in your audio equipment.

As long as I am on a roll, I might mention reservations I have with all the new room EQ functions in receivers these days. I can't tell you how many times I have asked customers to turn off the EQ function and just use the speakers as they are. In almost every case, they reported a dramatic improvement in performance.

This would not seem to make sense. Here we have a magic electronic gadget that can correct for any flaw in the speakers/room and do it at the listening position. But all too often, it simply doesn't work.

On quite a few occasions, I have used DEQX (a very powerful and capable system) to apply a simple correction to a single loudspeaker. In other words, I was not using it as a crossover, just using it to measure and correct for anomalies in the speaker performance. In almost every case, the speaker performed far better without the corrections.

IMO, the only thing an automated receiver EQ system should be used for is to deal with room modes. It should not touch the signal above, say, 100Hz. The only thing it can do at higher frequencies is screw things up. I am very confident that the speakers we produce have absolutely no need for correction. There simply isn't anything to correct.

Any issue that does require correction is room-related. Changing speaker performance in order to deal with poor room acoustics is, plain and simple, a very bad idea.

The right technology, applied correctly, can be extremely beneficial in achieving great system performance. But sometimes technology can be a curse. It seems like every major receiver manufacturer today is offering an auto-EQ function. This may be great marketing, but in many cases, it is a terrible use of technology. Others may disagree with this advice, but if you have a function such as this on your receiver, please turn it off. In most cases, you will be a lot happier.

End of diatribe.

- Jim


_________________________
Iím armed and Iím drinking. You donít want to listen to advice from me, amigo.

-Max Payne

Top
#310039 - 06/10/10 11:56 AM Re: Vp 150 and Vp180 question [Re: BlueJays1]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8488
Loc: Tacoma
Great stuff, Dr. House. Thanks for posting it. Jim Salk is a cool guy; I met him at the Oregon Coast GTG last fall.
_________________________
bibere usque ad hilaritatem

Top
#310048 - 06/10/10 01:12 PM Re: Vp 150 and Vp180 question [Re: tomtuttle]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16437
Loc: Ben Lomond, California
Agreed. It's great to hear speaker makers' opinions -- especially when they're articulate. \:\)
_________________________
I can explain it to you but I can't understand it for you.

Top
#310072 - 06/10/10 06:20 PM Re: Vp 150 and Vp180 question [Re: BlueJays1]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7786
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
IMO, the only thing an automated receiver EQ system should be used for is to deal with room modes. It should not touch the signal above, say, 100Hz. The only thing it can do at higher frequencies is screw things up.

And that about says it all. Higer in the spectrum, you use absorbtion and diffusion (IF you choose to do anything at all) to deal with any sereous anomalies.

I am a fan of REW, but only use its output to equalize the lower bass frequencies.
_________________________
Fred

-------
Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

Top
#310237 - 06/13/10 12:39 AM Re: Vp 150 and Vp180 question [Re: BlueJays1]
bdpf Offline
aficionado

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 769
Loc: Toronto, Canada
I haven't bought a SPL meter yet but have listened to some music with the EQ On and OFF and have to say that for now, I prefer with the EQ ON. This might be due to the fact that my room is very bad for acoustic. 20 x 11 ft, hardwood floors (I still need to buy a rug) and plain walls with no curtains. So even if in general it's not a good idea to modify the speakers performance to compensate for a bad room, in my case, it seems to help... Or I am might already be used to the sound, I don't know...
_________________________
Bruno
M80s/VP180/QS8s/EP600/AVR-890
------------------------------------
"The problem is choice..."

Top
#310243 - 06/13/10 08:17 AM Re: Vp 150 and Vp180 question [Re: bdpf]
CatBrat Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 6015
Loc: Milky Way Galaxy
I have a similarly sized room 17 x 11.5 with curtains and a rug and I still prefer EQ on.

Top
#310246 - 06/13/10 09:22 AM Re: Vp 150 and Vp180 question [Re: bdpf]
BlueJays1 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 4116
Loc: Porch,enjoying Bombay Sapphire
 Originally Posted By: bdpf
I haven't bought a SPL meter yet but have listened to some music with the EQ On and OFF and have to say that for now, I prefer with the EQ ON. This might be due to the fact that my room is very bad for acoustic. 20 x 11 ft, hardwood floors (I still need to buy a rug) and plain walls with no curtains. So even if in general it's not a good idea to modify the speakers performance to compensate for a bad room, in my case, it seems to help... Or I am might already be used to the sound, I don't know...


Will the auto EQ effect sound quality? Yes it will. Ultimately it is up to the end user and what he/she prefers. There is no right or wrong answer despite strong opinions on both sides of the argument. If you like what Audyssey did leave it on.
_________________________
Iím armed and Iím drinking. You donít want to listen to advice from me, amigo.

-Max Payne

Top
#310255 - 06/13/10 01:42 PM Re: Vp 150 and Vp180 question [Re: BlueJays1]
casey01 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 07/03/08
Posts: 852
Loc: Toronto
As "Dr. House" states, in the end, your ears will be the arbiter of what sounds good to you and what doesn't. It is interesting to note that in reading the comments from Jim Salk, it would seem that the folks at Axiom aren't the only ones that aren't too thrilled about the use of these Auto EQ functions built in to modern day AVRs and Pre-Pros.

Top
#310260 - 06/13/10 02:02 PM Re: Vp 150 and Vp180 question [Re: casey01]
BlueJays1 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 4116
Loc: Porch,enjoying Bombay Sapphire
 Originally Posted By: casey01
As "Dr. House" states, in the end, your ears will be the arbiter of what sounds good to you and what doesn't. It is interesting to note that in reading the comments from Jim Salk, it would seem that the folks at Axiom aren't the only ones that aren't too thrilled about the use of these Auto EQ functions built in to modern day AVRs and Pre-Pros.


Yes casey01. Alan has made similar comments in the past that mirror those opinions posted by Mr. Salk regarding Auto EQ. From a customer service/troubleshooting standpoint alone I can understand why speaker manufacturers would be hesitant to recommend using such features.
_________________________
Iím armed and Iím drinking. You donít want to listen to advice from me, amigo.

-Max Payne

Top
Page 3 of 3 < 1 2 3

Moderator:  alan, Amie, Andrew, axiomadmin, Brent, Debbie, Ian, Jc 
Forum Stats

15,406 Registered Members
16 Forums
24,328 Topics
430,893 Posts

Most users ever online:
2,082 @ 01/22/20 10:43 AM

Top Posters
Ken.C 18044
pmbuko 16437
SirQuack 13675
CV 11754
MarkSJohnson 11445
4 registered (Mojo, VintageUke, Kodiak, CV)
329 Guests and
3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newsletter Signup