Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Should I upgrade my M22's?

Hello guys as most of you know I just recently got my Axioms. I couldn't test it to the fullest yet since Axiom has made a mistake on my order and didn't ship one of the M22's. (It was shipped Wednesday) I am happy with it for it's HT use, but regarding music it seems to me that there is something missing. I know that I still didn't calibrate it properly, but have been wondering about upgrading it to M50's. Would it be some improvement or should I stick with the M22? Also there is another question regarding the 30 days in home trial. If I exchange my speakers will I have another 30 days for trying it out? Thanks for all your help as you have been really helpful so far!

Forgot to say that I am planning on getting the M50's but if I don't like them will I be able to upgrade to the M60's after having another 30 days trial? ( if it is ever possible)

If it were me, I'd bypass the M50's altogether and go straight for the M60's. I haven't heard them, but they look like it was designed for people that don't like any high end. But it might be just right for you and your room situation. You don't hear much about the M50's here, so there might be a reason for that.

what is lacking about the m22's ?, how big is your room ?, do you have a sub ? My M22's upstairs are more than adequate with my ep350 to fill our huge living room.

I felt something was lacking with just the M22's also, but to me, it was more of a lack of sound stage. The sound was localized. Then I tried the on-wall M22's and it greatly enhanced the sound stage, but I didn't like the sound. At first I thought there was a lack of bass, but after much listening, there seemed to be more bass. I don't like voices from the on-walls, they just don't sound right at all, and some frequencies seem shrill.

My next trial will be with mounting the M22's on the wall and then mount M2's just above them. I'm not sure what affect this will have, if any, but I'm expecting the same M22 sound with perhaps a bigger sound stage since sound will be coming from above also.

Anyway, just my experience with M22's.

That's one of the fastest cases of upgradeitis I've seen on the boards.

Save yourself some time, the M60's are great but I would just get a pair of M80's and not look back.

My room is small 12 X 8.5 X 8.5. As I have received advice I might have some room problems, since I am lacking mid bass from my sub. For the ones who does not know. I have 3 M22's for front and QS8's for surrounds and an EP350. For movies I think it is fine despite the lack of calibration from my part though. Taking in consideration the room is small I was wondering that the M50's could be just fine for my purposes and in case I don't like them, if it were possible I would like a new upgrade.

LOL Wouldn't it be too much for my room?

As an owner of M22s, M50s, and M80s, I'd also go straight for the M60s, if you're certain that's how you want to play it.

I have the W22 in-on walls, a VP100 below and a VP150 above, Four QS8s and the EP500 in a 11' x 10' room

After research and ordering... plus reading the boards a lot, I don't know.... I was expecting some sort of life changing experience ... I got that experience .. some things sound incredible, others not so much ... then I change the setup parameters other things sound perfect, others not so much...

I'm learning to live with it knowing I made the right choice and it is miles above what I had and more than enough


My current setup was all about movies and my HTPC.. and I am very content... if I were to change something, I would setup a separate system just for music with the 80's, but for me that would be in a different room ......

As one sig says enjoy the music/movie, forget the hardware

everyone that comes to my home says they have never heard anything so incredible....

I have bitstreaming HD Audio, a home server with 16 TB, whole house audio, you name it .. some times I think we get to wrapped up in the tech and trying to achieve some unknown level... that we aren't sure even what that level is ...

or of course you might just hate your speakers

A bookshelf speaker makes so much more sense for your room size especially since you use a sub. Move down to the M3 perhaps? It might also help that midbass problem due to its frequency response in that area you seem to prefer.

I believe that being a musician since young makes me more picky regarding how music sounds. LOL This might be a problem.

That might be something to consider. Isn't the M50 build on the same drivers as the M3?

So're the M60s and M80s... but the M50s are missing the 5.25" midrange.

Yes. The M50 is a tower version of the M3 and uses a similar crossover design IIRC. The advantages of the M50 tower over the M3 bookshelf becomes mute when you add a subwoofer to the M3's. In a room your size there is not much advantage to a tower speaker IMO.

IC. Well I guess I will play around with the speakers some more and if I still find it something missing I am gonna talk to Axiom regarding upgrading.

Yep ... I've played guitar, sax, flute, drums. piano, and some others. My dad was a professional drummer and we had very talented folks in the house all the time, when I was a kid, a 16 peice "arranged" (oxy-morom, I know) dixieland band use to practice in our living room when my dad wanted to have a block party ..... so trust me I care about the music

Most that I listen to is ripped from CDs in wav, but some is thru squeezebox internet

Like me, I'm guessing you expected to have a live concert by (pick your favorite here) in your living room everyday with the Axioms, I think there may be a limit to reproduced sound, based on the enginneering. Sometimes , some songs sound better in my car! I don't think it's my setup.

I'm thinking there must be a big difference between the in-on walls vs. just the on-walls.

What I'm trying to say, but not, is let him have a chance to dial the system in, find the sweet spots before he upgrades, is disappointed etc. Seems as if most are encouraging an upgrade.

But I could be wrong, happens all the time

Ichigo, the M22s plus a good sub are superb for music. Nothing that should be there is missing. Resist evil temptations.

The M60 does not get you anything over the M22 plus a sub.

I tend to agree with you here.

I'll repeat my post of last night with an explanation. The M60 gives you nothing extra. I did a direct comparison of the M60 vs. M22 and sub and was surprised at how similar they sound (ie almost identical).

You WILL, however, lose out on the low bass of the EP350 and the visceral impact that gives to movies.

If you do decide to upgrade, go directly to the M80.

Thanks for you help guys! I decided to keep my M22's and don't upgrade, since I am very happy with them as I have mentioned on other post I made. After discovering the beauty of Dolby Prologic II for playing music there is no missing things on the hearing no longer. Just have to take a little more time to get all the speakers on the right spot. Haven't found the right place for the sub yet, even though I tried to put it right in front of me as Grunt advised me I still believe that it could sound a little better for movies. Have been thinking of getting a pair of M3 to get zone 2 on the kitchen. Should I get another pair of M22 instead?

Since bass seems important to you, you should probably stick with the M22s. They can produce more actual bass than the M3s. While the M3s without any other reference can sound like their making more low bass, because it is accented by the slight dip in the mid-bass range.

Your best choice without a sub is the M3. It will give you a more perceived "fuller" and more balanced sound when not using a subwoofer compared to the M22. The M3 frequency response is purposely altered this way for that exact reason.

Can you clarify that a bit for me?

In a 24x14x7 room with good acoustics , at a loud but not silly volume, how much difference can I expect between:

M22's + EP500
M60's + EP500
M80's + EP500

For music? For Movies?

That is something specific to my room I guess which is small. For bigger rooms the M22 wouldn't do so great I guess. Hope someone will come give you a better explanation.

Scamp, at the same volume and with the speakers in exactly the same positions(couldn't be so simultaneously, of course)there should be practically no audible difference. Above about 200Hz the drivers are the same for the mid-range(two 5 1/4" for the M22 and M80 vs one for the M60)and treble(two tweeters for the M80). Below about 100Hz the sub will be the principal factor. From about 100-200Hz the M60 and M80 have the two 6 1/2" drivers going, but both measurements and listening show that the two 5 1/4"s in the M22 provide strong and smooth upper bass for that range, and this would be the case at less than an extremely high volume level.

Ichigo:

Where is your crossover set for your sub/m22's? You hear a lot about 80hz but looking at the response graphs I'm guessing something closer to 100hz would be optimal.

FedEx says my M22's/QS8's are arriving tomorrow and I already have the SVS sub ready to roll. *grin*

That will give me the weekend to start testing out the M22+Sub configuration. I'll keep you posted.

Keep in mind that the response graphs are taken in an anechoic chamber which because of limitations due to the size of the wedges isn't accurate below about 90Hz. The minimum on the M22 impedance curve in the NRC measurements in the SoundStage review indicates that the M22 enclosure is tuned in the 50-55Hz area. My own in-room measurements with my M22s show pretty strong bass down to about 50Hz, so even a 60Hz crossover(which resulted from the Audyssey measurements)might be justified. I nevertheless manually reset the crossover to 80Hz, so that my EP500 would handle more of the lowest bass load and the M22s less.

Good to know. Thanks.

Today's status is: On FedEx vehicle for delivery.
Yip!

80hz is usually the best starting point not only with bookshelf speakers but with a lot of tower speakers if you have a well designed subwoofer. There is nothing wrong with trying 100hz. However, the further you increase beyond 80hz the subwoofer starts to become more and more localized. A higher crossover point can work and be beneficial with careful positioning of the subwoofer(s) close to the mains.

Let the Beta Test's begin!

Fedex delivered on time. Everything looked good, We ran the wires last night (leaving extra for repositioning) and today we start working on position and all that Jazz.....

Ooooooo!! I like Jazz...

One tip I have as I just did this last week. Play your m22's but on direct mode and see how they sound without anything interfering. I was more than impressed with the amount of bass they are capable of producing, actually was shocked. Don't get me wrong i love them coupled with my svs but some loud jack johnson by themselves is pretty sweet sounding IMO.

Speaking of M22's, one of mine has a bad subwoofer. Axiom is sending a replacement but it will take some time to get here.

Is there any issue using the M22 with the lower subwoofer disconnected while I wait for the replacement?

It's just a woofer, not a subwoofer. I don't see how operating the speaker with one woofer missing could damage anything, but it definitely won't sound right.

It will sound at least half-right though...

Should be no problem running with one of the woofers disconnected. Your receiver/amp will see a slightly higher impedence but that won't hurt anything.

Woofer, I stand corrected.

And as long as it won't hurt, it has to sound better than what it's doing now...

Yeah, are you getting that shrieky/scrapy sound when you play loud ?

It does not have to be very loud, just low but yes.

You could also disconnect a woofer on the other M22 and then they would be evenly matched again.

But then they could only whimper, not woof.

I removed the lower woofer, I would say I diagnosed the problem correctly. With it disconnected the bad sound stops.

Looking at it closely I don't see any obvious rip/tears or anti-matter seepage. It just moves wrong. Violent shaking which causes the rattling/buzzing sound. (and yes, the polarity is correct).

So as soon as the replacement arrives this one goes back home to the mother-ship.

hey scamp, have they given you tracking information on the drivers yet or rather if they have shipped yet that is?

Aye Captain, sensors are locked on target.

The replacement drivers came today. They were a breeze to install. I'll have to wait until tomorrow to test them out fully because I've been banned from the room for the evening.

Girls night.

All this work to setup and they're using it to watch chick flicks. No aliens, no explosions, it's a crime a tell ya, a crime.

I use mine to watch Iron Chef America. And I've got M80s.

I use mine to watch Hannah Montana.

No joke I really do.

What? No icarly?

Never got hooked on that one.

iCarly is on Nickelodeon which I’ve never watched much. Only ever got into Sabrina, the Teenage Witch and Zoey 101 on that channel.

I should explain how this happens. Armed Forces Radio Television Service (AFRTS), or A- Farts for short doesn’t carry vary risqué programming. Since I’ve yet to buy anything to carry portable media on I end up watching it overseas usually when recovering from long runs. Several years ago, in Turkey I got hooked on the Cartoon network. “Fosters Home for Imaginary Friends,” “Teen Titans,” “Codename: Kids Next Door,” “The Grim Adventures of Billy & Mandy,” “The Powerpuff Girls (totally kick a$$ on Townsville BTW), and “Hi Hi Puffy AmiYumi” (got me into Japanese music big time).

So next trip was to Guam and this time it was the Disney Channel. “Wizards of Waverly Place,” “Hannah Montana,” “Cory in the House,” “Kim Possible,” “The Suite Life of Zack and Cody,” “Life With Derek,”

A few of the shows usually get me hooked so I watch them when I get back stateside. This last time around it was “Hannah Montana” and “Wizards of Waverly Place.”

Somebody just try to come and take my Man Card, I dare ya.

Is this where I admit that I watch H2O: Just Add Water? It's an Australian fantasy/sci-fi show...




...aimed at teen girls...




...about mermaids.

Cool, queued it up to download right after Dora the Explorer season 2 and Wow, Wow, Wubbzy finish.

I watch a number of these shows with my kids and I admit that "Wizards of Waverly Place" is actually pretty funny.