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#318536 - 08/14/10 10:15 AM Re: Sub Thoughts [Re: AndrewSW]
AndrewSW Offline
buff

Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 46
I've read a couple more places in the forums that some people think the EP500 is only marginally better than the PB12-NSD. Anyone disagree with this?

The price tag is a pretty substantial difference, and I'm just curious what I'd be getting for the higher price of the EP50.

Thanks!
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#318538 - 08/14/10 10:33 AM Re: Sub Thoughts [Re: AndrewSW]
bridgman Offline
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Registered: 08/25/04
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The SVS NSD subs definitely put out a lot of bass for the $$, helped by their size (they're nearly 2x the size of the Axiom subs). They don't have any of the EP500 DSP-based features though (very flat response, graceful handling of overdrive etc..), so comparing to EP350 (same cabinet & driver as EP500 AFAIK, but not DSP) probably makes more sense.

Sub reviews sometimes rate subs very differently depending on whether they are being used for music or movies (movies tend to want "lots of bass", music tends to favor "tight" bass that stops quickly). You can design a sub that gets relatively more output from the port/cabinet combo and get more bass for the $$, but if you look at the graphs showing how response trails off over time at different frequencies you see the cost -- a much slower "decay" around the port/cabinet tune frequency.

If your requirements are mostly "lots of bass" for movies then non-DSP ported subs like the NSD offer a lot of performance for the $$. Note that Axiom also updated the EP350 recently with a larger cabinet and amp, although reviews of the Axiom subs suggest that they still lean towards a more "balanced" design with a bit less port output (therefore a bit less overall low bass output) but tighter response for music and movies with dynamic bass.

Or something like that wink
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#318539 - 08/14/10 10:35 AM Re: Sub Thoughts [Re: bridgman]
Ken.C Offline
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Registered: 05/03/03
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It wasn't particularly recently that the EP350 cab changed... that was way back with the EP350v3! The amp did change in the last few months from a more standard sub amp to a class D one (at least, I think it's a class D; it's certainly small enough...
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#318544 - 08/14/10 12:38 PM Re: Sub Thoughts [Re: Ken.C]
bridgman Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 6225
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
Interesting... didn't know about the new amp. Thanks !

I didn't think the v3 was so long ago... maybe I need to get out more wink
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#318558 - 08/14/10 02:59 PM Re: Sub Thoughts [Re: bridgman]
CatBrat Offline
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Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 6015
Loc: Milky Way Galaxy
I've only seen the EP350 with 250(?) watt amp in some old review. I have the current model and it really puts out the bass. I have absolutely no complaints with this device and I will complain when I'm not satisfied with something.

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#318562 - 08/14/10 03:22 PM Re: Sub Thoughts [Re: bridgman]
fredk Offline
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Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7786
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: bridgman
Sub reviews sometimes rate subs very differently depending on whether they are being used for music or movies (movies tend to want "lots of bass", music tends to favor "tight" bass that stops quickly).

Not really. You want the same tight bass for movies that do for music. Sloppy bass = poorly defined boom instead of the whump/thump you should get from explosions.

Originally Posted By: bridgman
You can design a sub that gets relatively more output from the port/cabinet combo and get more bass for the $$, but if you look at the graphs showing how response trails off over time at different frequencies you see the cost -- a much slower "decay" around the port/cabinet tune frequency.

Again, I disagree. The port and cabinet of the sub act as an ampifyer to boost the bottom end of the sub, but they only amplify what the driver puts out.

What affects the 'speed" of the bass is driver design: motor strength, syspension compliance, driver linearity. If you have a ported sub that produces sloppy bass, its the driver design.

Lots of bass for movies will comes from driver displacement. You need a big driver and/or lots of driver exscursion to produce those deep pressure waved we like from action movies.

The 'hit you in the chest' bass actually comes from the upper bass and may well come partially or even mostly from your mains if you have a lower crossover.
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#318567 - 08/14/10 03:36 PM Re: Sub Thoughts [Re: fredk]
bridgman Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 6225
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: fredk
Not really. You want the same tight bass for movies that do for music. Sloppy bass = poorly defined boom instead of the whump/thump you should get from explosions.


Yes and no. I agree completely that you want lots of bass *and* tight bass but if you are buying at a certain price point and making tradeoffs then your happiness with those tradeoffs will, in part, be a function of the content you are playing most of the time.

Originally Posted By: fredk
Again, I disagree. The port and cabinet of the sub act as an ampifyer to boost the bottom end of the sub, but they only amplify what the driver puts out.


Sure, but the degree of amplification can vary and the port output doesn't die out as quickly as the driver output.

Originally Posted By: fredk
What affects the 'speed" of the bass is driver design: motor strength, syspension compliance, driver linearity. If you have a ported sub that produces sloppy bass, its the driver design.


I'm certainly not saying the driver doesn't matter, but the cabinet & port (and the damping material, to some extent) make a significant difference as well.

Originally Posted By: fredk
Lots of bass for movies will comes from driver displacement. You need a big driver and/or lots of driver exscursion to produce those deep pressure waved we like from action movies.

The 'hit you in the chest' bass actually comes from the upper bass and may well come partially or even mostly from your mains if you have a lower crossover.


Can't disagree with any of this.
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#318578 - 08/14/10 04:28 PM Re: Sub Thoughts [Re: bridgman]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7786
Loc: Canada
I think we are pretty much on the same page. I agree with what you have posted.

I personally don't want to trade anything off as I really enjoy both music and, surprisingly, movies a lot more now that I have a good system.

Honestly, unless you are in the budget category, I don't think you need to trade anything off any more. There are a lot of very well designed drivers and subs out there. You have DIY, kit and prefab options available to you so that you can get excellent bass with no tradeoffs in the $1K to $2K range.
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#318596 - 08/14/10 10:03 PM Re: Sub Thoughts [Re: fredk]
jakewash Offline
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Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10415
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
As I have mentioned I found the biggest difference between the NSD and any of Axiom's subs is that textured sound Axiom has.

So far as output, the EP350 is slightly less than the NSD and I feel the NSD is only slightly less than the 500 and this is all only really noticeable with A/B tests I have done. They are all very good subs.

I actually prefer the sound of Axiom's subs to my PB13 but I liked the low 15hz I could get out of the PB13 for the odd movie scene.
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#318598 - 08/14/10 10:07 PM Re: Sub Thoughts [Re: fredk]
AndrewSW Offline
buff

Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 46
Originally Posted By: fredk
you can get excellent bass with no tradeoffs in the $1K to $2K range.



I'm still not completely clear on the difference between SVS's PB12-NSD (which is below your price point as "no tradeoff subs" v. the EP500.

I'm comfortable spending the extra money for the EP500, but I just want to know what I'm getting for my extra $$.


Also, anyone running a system with an EP500 and a EP600 or 800? I read a post that some said the Ep500 was better at the upper end of bass and the 600 and 800 were better in the lower end of the bass spectrum. If this is true... would I benefit from running both?
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