Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Excited about my VP180

I have already sort of said "hello" by expressing a thought on the "shootout" thread, but want to attempt a better job of it in a fresh thread. Greetings! This Thursday, if things arrive per Fed-Ex's plans, I hope to be receiving a new Axom 5.1 speaker system: M80s, VP180, QS8's, and an EP500 in the stock black oak finish.

Powering the speakers will by an Emotiva XPA-5 connected to an Onkyo TX-SR706.

Besides being influenced by several glowing reviews of the speakers, another significant factor in my choosing Axiom speakers is simply the power that they offer. I feel I need big powerful speakers to tame my voluminous two-story living room that is also semi-open to the first and second floor halls. In the past I've wired up floor-standing speakers in that room, but the room's volume always seems to swallow them up. But, I've never had speakers that are of the quality, size, and power of the M80s, VP180, or EP500.

Speaking of powerful speakers, I am especially looking forward to the M80s and VP180. The idea of a huge center channel speaker really appeals to me. Apparently from what I've read, I have the members of this forum to thank for that idea.

So, that's where I am: eager to unbox and set the new speakers up. For those of you who have the VP180 already, what are your impressions of it thus far? Meeting or exceeding your expectations? Any "comb-filtering" issues that those on other forums swear it will have even though they have never heard it? [I have read Alan Loft's article on comb-filtering].

For those who have expressed warm welcomes to me already on the "shootout" thread, thank you very much. This appears to be a kind-hearted and good-natured forum.

And a proper welcome to you! Sounds to me like you've got a great system coming. Please give us pictures!

David, welcome. You went right to the top to start, and in a couple days, God and FedEx willing, you'll be enjoying great sounds through your Axioms.

Can't wait to hear your feedback once you have a listen.

Hi darbo. Yes, the M80s can handle tremendous power, more than their rating of 400wts suggests. Axiom has tested these speakers at 700+ watts continously for 24 hrs and to give you some example how much power they are capable of, at the Axiom gathering which concluded at Ian's boathouse on Lake of Bays, the live band there was playing through 8xM80's and 4 Axiom A1400amps over the Bay...it was loud AND clear!! if you give them the power you'll certainly have no problem filling your large room.

Some of Axiom's designs are different from the "accepted" norm such as dual tweets or slightly different arrangement of their drivers(as in the VP180) but they spend many hours blind testing various designs including the "conventional" ones and if the "unconventional" design sounds better in the blind test then that's what they go with. I personally like that fact myself. Axiom recently brought on board Andrew Welker who was the chief designer at Mirage. Have a look at some of his designs like the OMD 15's or 28's....certainly not "conventional" but brilliant designs.

Trust your ears!

I'd be interested to know how the emotiva handles the m80's and vp180. I've heard mixed reviews about how it performs with the m80's.

I am interested to find that out too! I'll give it a work out and post my impressions of it. I'm hopeful that it's a good match, though I too have heard of some issues. Oddly, though, the only issues I have heard was with the XPA-2.

Anyone else have any experience running M80s and a VP180 with an XPA-5?

David

You will love your M80/VP180/EP500 combo! This is my exact system. In my room, all seating positions do not suffer from any comb filtering.

VP180 is a sweet speaker, if you room can accomodate it. It is a huge speaker and I suspect many wifes will not like the "look" of it in standard living rooms. I don't have that issue, and yes I do have a wife.

I am interested how the emo will handle three 4ohm speakers.

Let us know.

pn

I'm curious to know why the Emotiva wouldn't be able to handle pushing the M80s... and it "sounds" like quite a few are doubtful (maybe?) that the Emotiva will be sufficient?

What is the recommendation of choice then? is it still two monoblocks (outlaw audio)?

My home theatre will be up and running soon and I'd like to get the most out of the epic80 and the ep800. I know I've asked the question in the past and that's what most suggested (2x outlaw audio mono200) but the was 2years ago... wondering if it's still the way to go.

Shouldn't be an issue with that configuration .

I have run my XPA-3 hard in both 2 and ht mode with no issues , knock on wood.

I believe Emotiva has resolved some of the earlier problems like I had my MPS-1 shutting down years ago, of course your Onkyo has anough power to drive the speakers without an extra amp.

sorry for the hi-jack, but it's on the same topic... does the denon 3808 have enough power to drive the m80s, the ep800, and the vp180? or should I look at adding an amp(s)?

The Denon should be fine.

Well lets see, my 3808 has no issues driving my m80's, vp150, 4 Qs8's in a 30ft x 32ft x 9ft room. The EP800 has its own amp onboard and doesn't use the Denon.

The Denon is 130watts per channel

The m80's and 180 play at 95dB "in room" only using 1 watt if you look at the specs, so that should answer your questions.

Emotiva's have been known to have issues with a few M80s, inparticular the XPA-2; the XPA-3 and 5 appear to work well, not sure why the difference.

You can also look at pro audio DJ amps the only downfall are some have noisy fans or lack RCA inputs. The majority that go this route use Behringer, QSC to name a couple.

There was a problem with the protection circuit cutting in on the M80s. Emo offered a mod when you bought it to remedy the issue but as you say I believe it’s been taken care up across their whole line now.

My personal preference with 3 large front speakers is 3 monoblocks. That way if one goes out you can still run stereo with the amps while waiting for the third to be repaired or replaced. JMO

i currently use an XPA-5 to power my M80v3, VP180v3 & pair of QS8v3's and I have no problems at all with any of them. the amp has only ever gotten warm, never hot with them, never. congrats on your 180 & best of luck with whatever amp you choose.

please keep us posted.

exceeding! my setup is hooked to XPA5 and UPA2.. and it sure can sing

Thanks for the info! I'll wait a bit on the monoblocks and maybe put that money towards the v180 stand!

how big is your room? I'm anxious to get my hands on a 180, but would need to sell my 150 first.

I'll buy your 150 if you buy mine and then we can both buy a VP180

It has taken me a little longer than I had hoped to submit my review, but I had a couple of business trips to attend and the wiring/setup has taken me longer than ever (simply due to the fact that the speakers are in my highest visibility room and I want the wiring to be as discrete as I can make it without an invasive through-the-walls approach.).

Also, actually, the Emotiva has also delayed me somewhat as well. Maybe it's just my XPA-5, but that amp has always been an extremely sensitive - easily kicking into protect mode. Even before my Axiom speakers came, it would typically kick into protect mode whenever the receiver stopped sending a continuous signal (such as when switching audio modes). The XPA-5 does not seem to be troubled at all by the M80s or VP180, but through trial and error I have discovered that the amp runs solidly without kicking to protect mode if I run only the M80s and VP180. So, the surrounds are now being powered by the Onkyo, which is plenty for them.

So, how about a little review of my Axiom experience thus far?!

The sound quality is simply wonderful and breathtaking. Playing music gives a sense of being in concert, something I've never experienced at home before. The clarity of the instrumentation is astounding, and the power of the speakers are up to the challenge of dominating my two-story space.

The EP500 doesn't seem as loud as my HSU Research sub, which is half the power of the EP500, but it performs/sounds better to my ears. Together with the M80s, it is particularly nice.

The VP180 is very good, but not quite as great as I had hoped. As evidenced by the topic heading, the VP180 was my most anticipated speaker; I had very high hopes for it that may have been unreasonable. I have discovered that to maximize intelligibility of voices, I need to set the VP180 to an 80Hz cut-off. This is seems disappointing since it, like the M80, is a near-full-range speaker. Due to my slight disappointment, I tested it against a couple of other center channels I have; a large Polk and a Vienna Acoustics. My wife and I both agreed that the VP180 was better for movies and utterly crushed the Polk and VA for music. Also, stunningly, the huge V180 looks pretty cool on its dedicated stand, so it also decisively won the competition on room aesthetics as well (mainly because it looks really nice composed in our unique room setting, not because it has better appearance as a speaker).

Speaking of crushed, the M80s are causing me a problem. I have a picture wall just above the left channel. During playback of a bass-heavy recording one of my pictures went flying off the wall! OK, I say it's a "problem", but that's what I call a really really good/fun problem! That's just another one of many "wow" moments I've had so far with this amazing Axiom system.

This is the first time I have ever had the discipline and the wherewithal to purchase a complete matched speaker system. The Axiom speakers simply sound phenomenal together. Lots of people, like me, mix and match speakers of different makes, but having a matched set produces a superior experience.

Not all has been great with my Axiom Audio order though, and the following are some of those not-so-great aspects. While the sound quality of the Axiom system seems superb to my ears (the first time any speaker has sounded superb to me in this room!), the visual quality of the speakers is not quite as great. I am annoyed that there is a score mark on the black-oak vinyl on one of the M80s. It is very small and limited to a front corner on the top. I placed the slightly-defective M80 away from the major traffic space, no one is ever going to notice it; I'll just know it's there. My assessment is that it is not a significant enough defect to warrant the headache of returning the speaker.

Also, on the bottom-left corner of the backside of the EP500 the black oak vinyl is slightly delaminated. Again, it's small, and in this case on the backside; not significant enough to me to go through the trouble of returning the product for that reason. But, I paid for a non-defective EP-500, so it's annoying if only superficial.

The worst fit and finish problem, by far, are the dedicated Axiom stands for the VP180 and the surrounds. They are painted black.....mostly. I estimate that they are 99.9% painted black. In other words, the paint coverage is not 100% and some of the raw aluminum is visible. Not pretty. I'll probably use a very small brush and do the touch-up work that Axiom should have done.

One more issue. The manual for the EP500 claims that an RCA adapter, which is required for connection to my Onkyo receiver, was supposed to be included, but I searched and searched and found no such adapter. So, I had to go to Radio Shack and buy one there to get by until Axiom can complete my order. Again, this says to me that Axiom is somewhat careless when it comes to the fine details of delivering a polished/complete product.

In conclusion I'd grade my Axiom system a "C-" for fit and finish and an "A-" for sound quality, but my total grade for the system is a solid "B".

Very good - but not spectacular - job, Axiom Audio!

David

P.S. Another Emotiva thought: One of the responses to this thread indicated that my Onkyo is sufficient to power my speakers. This is true. And in fact I have some strong incentive to just use the Onkyo. The Emotiva is a power hog, it is huge, and it adds no aesthetic value to my room (where aesthetics are important). But, the Emotiva puts out 300 watts per channel (at 4 ohms) and the M80s and VP180 seem to love that power. Testing the VP180 all by itself, I switched the speaker connections back and forth between the Emotiva and Onkyo and found that the added power from the Emotiva gave the VP180 a fuller/richer more vibrant sound even at lower volumes. Am I nuts? Am I just imagining the sound is better with a more powerful amp? Even though I prefer to take the Emotiva away and just use the Onkyo's built-in amp, my ears tell me that the Emotiva sounds so much better that it makes a convincing case for keeping it in place. It's not so much that the Emotiva sounds awesome, but that the Onkyo, by itself, sounds poorer/lamer/slightly-disappointing. But, if you think I'm just imagining a difference, I am all ears to listen to your argument.

I am glad you enjoy your Axiom setup and sorry to hear about your finish troubles. We don't hear this type of issues often.

2 questions:

1) on another thread you said:

After listening to the EP500 for yourself, do you think it is an inferior product compared to the competition and do you regret your decision?

2) You seem to be a bit disappointed with the VP180 but mentioned that it was much better than the other centers that you have. Can you explained what is disappointing you?

Concerning amplifier differences, I originally bought a very cheap Sony 100wpc receiver from Newegg for about $150. Then I sent this back, and purchased a Pioneer Elite 110wpc from BestBuy for $640. The difference was amazing. I only had a single pair of M22's at the time, and I got a much fuller sound with the Pioneer. With the Sony, I got good mids and highs, but was severely lacking in bass and power.

I think that a good power supply probably goes a long way in sound quality, because that's one of the things that was light with the Sony.

This is the first I have read someone disappointed with a VP180.

Maybe its just the "break-in" period?

I don't have the ability to answer your first question. I don't have access to the subs that will be reviewed in the shootout. Compared to my HSU Research VTF-2 MK 3 sub, the EP-500 is clearly better...and at twice the cost it darn well better be better! How would it stack up to an SVS PB12-Plus, which costs just a little more than the EP-500? I have no idea, but my guess is that the EP-500 would not hold up. If I could do it all over again, I might give more consideration to the SVS, but there is substantial value to me in having a matched set for purely visual-aesthetic reasons. In other words, another sub might be better acoustically, but the EP-500 is a perfect visual fit with the rest of the system.

I regard myself as happy with the EP500, but will always be suspicious that it isn't up to the competition because Axiom withdrew from competition. But, I am happy with my purchase because the EP500 sounds satisfactory to me, so this isn't anything that is going to gnaw on me.

On the VP180 I am likewise happy. For all I know the VP180 is the best center channel speaker in the world...and my expectations were just too high. When I set up my speakers (I have yet to run the Audyssey), I manually set the M80s and VP180 to a 40Hz threshold. However, this made voices difficult to hear on the VP180, but when I set the threshold to 80Hz the voices became satisfactorily clear. I had just hoped that the VP180 would sound great with a 40Hz threshold, so that is the limit of my disappointment. This is a really small matter to me; as I indicated my testing demonstrated that the VP180 is the most superior center channel I've ever had. I love it, just not quite as much as my probable unrealistic expectations.

I am surprised you haven't heard of more finish issues, since 50% of the items in my order had finish issues (again, not so severe that I'm willing to ship things back for replacement). If only one item in my sizeable order had an issue, I wouldn't have mentioned it, but when 50% of my order affected I have to conclude that such issues must be the norm. But, I am way-happier with a less-than-perfect finished superbly sounding speaker and stands, than I am with beautifully finished less-than-stellar sounding speakers.

You may rightly regard me as a satisfied customer.

Oh but no, you still have yet to read someone who is disappointed with a VP180! Please permit me to again state that per my own tests, the VP180 sounded better than any center channel I have ever owned. If I register any disappointment it is merely that it didn't match up to my probably-too-high expectations. Not meeting my expectations is disappointing, but on the whole I assess the VP180 as pretty awesome. If I could do it all over again I'd absolutely order the VP180. I'll have another look at my original wording and revise it to emphasize my satisfaction with it.

Hope that clears things up and thanks for calling attention my need to be very careful with words; especially in a product review!

[EDIT: The "Edit" button is missing under my review, so please allow this reply to suffice as a clarification regarding my satisfaction with the VP180.]

Have you tried the VP180 with a 60hz crossover? Also placement of the speaker can make a difference, a few inches higher or lower, even a slightly different angle can greatly increase SQ.

I agree the M80s love power and sound better(IMO) with lots of power available but they don't sound bad with just a simple good quality avr driving them.

Thanks for taking the time to write up your thoughts

I have to say that I don't fully understand how that could be since typical male voices will be above 80Hz, I would see that to be more of a problem for music with bass instruments (although I think the VP180 does a wonderful job in this department). Maybe someone with a bit more of technical knowledge will be able to explain. What matters is that you found a setting that sounds good to you.

Yes I did try 60Hz...basically just kept moving that threshold up and up until I achieved results that satisfied me. That's a great point about speaker placement/position. My room, due to it's multi-purpose usage is necessarily compromised from a speaker placement/position standpoint. The VP180 looks cool and sounds very good where it is, so for now I'm going to leave it as is even if it might sound better a little higher or angled up a bit.

I think you have fingered the issue right on. If a male voice is above 80Hz and the VP180 is set to a threshold of 40Hz, then our experience was that the non-voice sounds between 40-80Hz were reducing the clarity and intelligibility of the dialogue. As I moved the threshold up from 40 to 60 and then from 60 to 80, the dialogue became increasingly clear and focused.

I am going to continue to experiment with the threshold setting to see if this is simply a matter of me adjusting to the system.

If there is material in the 40-80Hz range, it's because it has been mixed there. Maybe it's a bad mix? Did you try with different source material and got the same effect?
In any case, setting the xover at 80Hz will redirect this info to the subwoofer so it would still be there. Can't really understand how that effect voice clarity. That puzzles me...

OK, thanks for the push-back. You're the expert, not me! I'll continue to experiment.

Most male voices fall into the 80-160hz area fwiw.

darbo, I do understand what you're inferring(right or wrong, I don't know) in that when you add other low freq's by means of a lower crossover it can affect other, slightly higher freq's as the speaker is doing more work(that the sub could/should handle). Do some experimenting, it's possible if you remove the lower, under 80hz freqs, then the centre can in fact, play more clearly in the 80hz+ region where male voicing is prominent.

I'm wondering if the speaker is mounted low and there isn't some muddiness happening due to floor reflections?

Funny if you look at the 2010 highlights it says "Axiom introduces the VP180, a 'monster subwoofer' inspired by customers seeking the ultimate in home theater sound playback."

http://www.axiomaudio.com/corp.html

I am really appreciating this dialogue very much; it is encouraging me all the more to experiment and reassess!

I just ran the system through the Audyssey calibration for the first time with the Axioms and it set the M80s and VP180 to full. Hmmm. My initial reaction to the calibration is positive (music sounds absolutely awesome in that setting). I have a Blu-Ray disc playing right now and the dialogue seems quite intelligible. Could it be that the system simply needed to be calibrated to our listening environment?

That said, the audyssey calibration results lead me to this question: Is it harmful to the M80s or VP180 to have them set to full for blu-ray/dvd content?

I am open to the possibility that I simply need to adjust myself to the VP180; that the only thing that needs "breaking in" is me. If it won't harm the speakers to leave them at full, per the Audyssey calibration, I'd like to do so for an extended period to ensure that we're sampling enough varying content and to learn if we simply need to adjust our own "hearing posture" to the system.

By "full" I assume you are saying your receiver set your m80's and 180 to "large". Audyssey does not do this, but looks for the -3dB point of each speaker and reports this back to the receiver. Each manufacturer of the receiver would determine if the speaker is set to large or small. Most of them use 40hz as the cutoff, which Audyssey recommends.

Anyway, unless you don't have a sub, you want to go into the receiver setup and change each speaker that was set to "large" to "small". The crossover for the m80's and 180 could then be set to 60-80hz.

That's interesting that you should say that...it was my very first thought before I went down the raise-the-xover-to-80Hz route. But, I discounted it because the speaker is sitting on an speaker stand designed by Axiom; an "audiophile-quality" stand, no less! But, perhaps it's just the challenge of our unique room environment.

OK, thanks for the Audessey information...there's a lot to learn there! So, it appears that the Onkyo receiver has taken the information from the Audessey calibration and set the M80s and VP180 to "full range", which is probably Onkyo's term for "large". Is it harmful to leave it set like that? Or will the super-low frequencies in Blu-Ray/DVD content cause physical harm to the M80s/VP180? Just curious.

I can't understand why you're considering that a push back. That wasn't in any way meant to be an offense and if I would be an "expert", I would have an answer to your question.

Not sure it would be harmful, as the m80's and 180 can play very low frequencies. However, a subwoofer with a 12" or bigger woofer can move more air in those lower frequencies. When you set the crossover to say 80hz, frequencies below that point are redirected to the subwoofer. Also, some think they are just cutoff, when in fact there is a slope or blending handoff.

after doing the calibration on my Onkyo 5507 pre-pro it set my front 3 (a pair of M80's & a VP180 all V3) to 40hz and i love the sound they all put out. all voices sound perfect and all spoken words make perfect sense to me. if that's where your speakers were set after your calibration program and if you like the way it sounds leave it. i did and i don't intend to move mine. mind you it's not going to be for or be accepted by everyone. good luck! and keep us posted on whatever you have chosen to do and why.

Running them full-range won't hurt anything. All that matters is what pleases your ears.

Lots of people get really hung up on letting the sub do all the heavy lifting. I'm a little less convinced for a number of reasons. First, you've got amp headroom in spades so you don't need to worry about how much power it will take to produce low frequencies on the M80's. Second, there can certainly be room nulls in the 40-80Hz range so having multiple sources for those frequencies (both the sub and the mains) at different locations can be of meaningful help in evening the overall bass response of the system. Third, the M80's have very useful output down to about 40Hz so you're not asking them to do anything they weren't designed for. Finally, my experience in my room is that I prefer to run my M60's with a crossover lower than 80Hz.

Experiment, find what you like, and enjoy yourself.

And - if you're not 100% satisfied - I think you should call Axiom and give them the opportunity to make it right.

Actually, my findings Tom are that for your second point the opposite is true. Adding the multiple sources as you describe actually negatively affect the peaks/nulls. Multiple sources placed correctly using the same drivers will do as you mention.

Like you I also run my m80's below 80hz and use 60hz crossover.

Tom, the point Randy makes is a valid one. Simply having multiple sources playing bass frequencies in no way guarantees smoother response. The contrary is the result when the sources are separated by about a half-wavelength, resulting in a null, or about a quarter-wavelength, resulting in a peak. The bass smoothing effect discussed by Dr. Toole, among others, and in the Harman papers requires placement of multiple subs at specific locations(not practical for the speakers)to obtain the desired benefit.

It sounds like your are happy with the lower crossover now the Audyssey EQ is in place but I’m curious if you have the chance if you would try two experiments.

First deselect the center channel in your receiver so that the center is played through your M80s, turn Audyssey off and set the crossover back down to 40Hz. Then sitting in the sweet spot see how the dialogue sounds just coming from the M80s.

Another thing to try is to turn Audyssey off and set the VP180 to 40Hz and place it vertically on the ground rather than horizontally on the stand. See how you think that compares to when it’s placed horizontally both in the sweet spot and off axis.

Not that any of this will really help you but I’ve been curious for some time how a VP180 would stack up to an M80 center like I’m using. No worries if this is to much trouble.

Like Tom said sometimes having multiple bass sources helps even things out. I ran all my front 3 M80s at 40Hz until I picked up a SVS AS-EQ1 to equalize my subwoofer correcting for room modes. Before the EQ multiple bass sourced sounded better plus I could get more midbass punch out of my M80s than my EP500 because I have a huge midbass dip and a huge very low bass peak which meant that trying to get good midbass out of my EP500 created way to much low bass. The EQ system took care of that (at least for the sweet spot) so now I mostly run them with an 80Hz crossover.

Cheers,
Dean

You didn't mean to offend and you didn't. All I meant by "push back" is merely the fact that you've questioned my experience, which I value as very helpful in my process of becoming more acquainted with this new system. I'll try again: Thanks for the push back helpful replies, expert experienced one! How is that?

Update: We watched a Blu-Ray movie tonight with the calibrated settings. Also I tried out a new placement for the EP500. The movie experience was perfect. Dialogue was clear, not muddled. Maybe I chose the wrong content to have my first impressions, or maybe the calibration really set things right, but whatever the case I had a great night with the VP180. Tonight it was the center channel I was hoping for.

Excellent, glad you are now liking the VP180 even more.

Glad you found the right settings that work for you.

Hi Darbo,
What is the distance between the back of your VP180 and the nearest surface or wall ?