Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo Stereo or Surround for Music Only Room

I say purchase the best possible two channel setup you can afford. If/when you want to hear the occasional surround format disc, listen to it in your HT.

Snell Acoustics is a pretty good company to listen to as well. I've never heard their high end stuff, but I've owned a pair of their Type K/II bookshelfs for over a decade, and they're still sweet sounding. They may have a dealer near you.

Have you heard Axiom's M80ti?

Hi Alan,

As a matter of fact, I'd previously read your article, and in fact it was that article that got me thinking and led to the posting. I'm very impressed by what I'm seeing here on the axiom site, and regret a bit that I had missed Axiom before purchasing my CSW Towers, as the M80's and the matching surround system might have been even better in my HT.

But, to get back to the subject at hand. While I agree with you that stereo has an intrinsic flaw, it does seem, for the majority of music out there, what we have, unless we DSP the signal- which could be the subject of yet another posting (grin). In my case, I wish to listen to the music I like, by the artists I'm interested in, and in most cases, they wouldn't be the people who are having the gold record levels of sales. Also, I understand that, at the moment many of the SACD and DVD-A discs are remixed from two channel masters, which, I think you'd agree likewise has flaws.

Thus, the majority of my critical listening will be to sources that are inherently stereo, and, as I mentioned, given the greater production costs, for the foreseeable future, most of the music (classical, jazz, world music, reggae, celtic, and so forth) will only be available in CD format, and thus I'd only get surround via DSP like Pro Logic II.

So to bedevil your devil's advocate position, given a choice of flaws.... would I be better served by getting the best possible translation of the 2 channels inherent in the CD to the speakers, or go to the surround option for the best musical listening experience?

"most of the music that I really want to critically listen to will be available only on CD for the foreseeable future."

Ear:

Will you be considering playing vinyl as opposed to CDs? I listen mostly to "classical" music and have never seriously considered a multichannel setup (do not have the real estate to do so anyways) but getting into vinyl opened a whole new world of music for me -- most LPs can be had for peanuts even compared to budget priced CDs. I think a decent TT/stereo setup maybe a better investment in the long run. Not to mention beter sound

Not swaying you either way, just giving you ideas

Good luck!

EL

Actually, when I recently moved from California to Michigan, I gave my vinyl collection away- in a way, I regret it. While there are many arguements about vinyl vs. CD's, I happen to believe that CD's have the potential to offer every bit as good sound, and unlike vinyl, they don't wear, I also admit to not missing the pops and hiss.

In demos in Audiophile shops, I've heard truly stunning soundstages and details off CD's, as well as intensely musical experiences.... more than enough to satisfy me, so I know it's possible. So while I'd never 'dis' vinyl, and in fact listened to it for years, I'm not planning on going back.

Hi,

I'd advocate going to the surrounds for the best and most realistic musical listening experience. Isn't realism the goal? Of course we are still in our living rooms or music rooms, but if you can close your eyes and be transported, even for a few minutes, to what I experience hearing a piano and cello recital in a well designed hall, then the illusion works.

There are a lot of misconceptions about DPLII. It does not digitally "manipulate" the signal a la Yamaha's "Digital Soundfield Processing". DPLII is a restorative process.

Dolby Surround was originally an analog matrix that subtracted L - R information from a 2-channel stereo recording and routed it, correctly, to the surround speakers at the sides, where the signals belonged in the first place. When digital processing enabled multiple channels and greatly improved separation, it became possible to extract ambient information and reproduce it very convincingly via 5.1 channels.

Think of using DPLII or Logic7 (or the dts version) as a restoration or correction of flaws inherent to 2-channel recording. This isn't to say that two channel stereo can't be very convincing at times, with a fine recording and very good speakers. But on lots of musical material that I prefer (large orchestral, choral, and operatic works; chamber music; and yes, bluegrass) the increased realism is astonishing when the ambience present in the 2-channel recording is restored via 5.1-channel playback.

You can always switch off the surrounds and listen in 2 channels. I often compare the two, and sometimes go with two channels.

Regards,

EAR,
I'd have to echo Spiffnme's sentiments. Buy the best 2 channel system you can afford (definitely give the M80s a listen, as Alan said there aren't many speakers as accurate as them). If you decide you want to listen to multichannel music, do it on your ht. If you come in to more money down the road, you could always expand you're 2 channel system to 5 speakers. To me, that seems the most logical way to proceed.

EAR, I have an RX-V1400 (almost identical to the RX-V2400), Axiom M60/VP150/QS8 and Hsu VTF-3R. I mainly like 70s and 80s popular music.

My summary of surround (paraphrased from the Longfellow poem): When it's good, it's very good indeed, but when it's bad it's horrid.

The few well-engineered, well-mixed multichannel DVD-A and SACD albums are very, very good. They open up an entirely new dimension of acoustic experience, yet aren't artificial or contrived. The problem is there aren't many of these, and I'd be concerned your favorite material wouldn't be available in multichannel surround for a long time, if ever.

That leaves Dolby PLII or HK Logic 7 to convert stereo to multichannel. My experience is with PLII; I've heard Logic 7 is somewhat better. PLII works well on some material, not so well on others. But it's rarely fake or artificial sounding like some DSP surround systems. Dolby was very conservative and it either works well or just doesn't work, rather than artificially forcing certain voices and instruments to the surrounds.

When playing surround from stereo material via PLII, many times I press the "direct stereo" to momentarily deactivate PLII and see which I prefer -- stereo or surround via PLII. Almost always (to my ear) I like the surround version.

Good stereo is better than mediocre surround, and there's lots of good stereo material. OTOH, if you go with a 5.1 config of M80/VP150/QS8, you'll have a good stereo config but also get surround as a bonus (for less than a semi-exotic stereo config).

There's a tendency to over-emphasize the delivery technology and under-emphasize room acoustics. I've reconfigured my system several times to different walls, positions, etc, and the difference is huge. That's with the same source material, amplifier, etc. I'd definitely recommend a professional acoustic analysis and room treatment. I'd submit a properly treated room with Axiom speakers will sound better than an untreated room with hypothetically perfect speakers.

YPAO is a nice feature, but the EQ part has significant limitations -- it's only 7 bands, and has often made mistakes on my room. E.g, selecting a 200Hz bass crossover, boosting one speaker by 6db and cutting it by 4db at the same frequency (??!). It's not a magic solution for poor room acoustics. The wiring, distance, and level checks are great.

In general my recommendation would be go with an Axiom M80/VP150/QS8 config and get a HK receiver with Logic 7 to maximize the stereo->surround experience. Combine this with a professional acoustic treatment of your listening room. Eventually when your favorite material is available in multichannel SACD or DVD-A, try that and see if you like it -- players are quite cheap in the context of your overall investment.

If you're uncertain about this, check the Axiom boards if there's a nearby Axiom owner offering auditions, who has a surround system with PLII or L7. Try out some of your stereo material and switch between stereo and surround modes on the amplifier. If none are nearby, you could still afford to travel a ways to hear it, considering the magnitude of investment you're considering.

Alan,

Thank you, this is helpful. My Yamaha RX-V2400 should be here next week for the HT- so I'll be able to play with the surround options and see. The upcoming Arcam AVR 300 would be a significant step up for the music room, should I want to go that route, and it will allow bi-amping the mains with two of the seven 100watt/ch amps built into it.

I hadn't realized that PL II was in essence a restorative process, that is good to know.

joema makes some good points. The success of a particular surround mix depends on both the material and the recording engineer's disgression.

Take the classic example of Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon. This SACD is mixed so the images are far out into the room and fly all over the place -- but it works marvelously. A similar mix of almost any other source would fail miserably.

Most multi-channel mixes that I enjoy use the surrounds only to carry an ambiance effect, similar to what PLII does. These albums come across very naturally and I never really notice the surrounds competing for attention with the mains.

I've have several opportunities to hear PLII at work with 2-channel sources. When you first engage PLII, it takes a little getting used to, but when you switch it off again, the entire soundstage seems to collapse in on itself. Also, in my brief tests I preferred PLII to Logic7.

Thanks, Joema

As I mentioned in my reply to Alan, my Yamaha RX V2400 should be here next week, and I've got a 7 speaker system upstairs that it's going into for the HT, so I'll be able to play with the surround options and see. Obviously, for a dedicated music room to make sense, it's have to be enough better than that to justify the expense. I'd probably go with 4 M80's plus the center, if I went with Axiom and the surround route. I'd like 5 M80's, but there is a fireplace in the way......well, not actually in the way, as I'm looking forward to 'dreaming the fire' with great music... but a center over it will be the only option.