Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater M2v3/VP150v2/VP180v3 center channel comparison

Thought I would post some of my thoughts of these various speakers as use as a center channel.

Bryan(icehawk21) was kind enough to lend me an M2 and his VP180 for this week and asked me to have a listen to them and give him my thoughts, so I shall share them with you all.

First a couple of pics

Here is a pic of the 2



And just the 180 as the center




(If anyone wants to see the M2 as a center in this set up let me know.)

As you can see the VP180 dwarfs the VP150, yet my trusty RS SPL meter showed very little difference between the 2 not even enough to adjjust channel levels for. The meter was a solid 75 db with the VP180 while the VP150 would have it drop into 74db ever so briefly, not enought to allow even a 0.5db boost other wise it read 75/76 regularly. I opted to not make any channel level adjustments. For reference the M2 needed a 3 db boost to match the VP180. I left Audyssey off to eliminate it's room corrections/EQ abilities and the crossover was initially left at 40hz for all, speakers set to small.

First thing I did was listen to The Eagles Farewell Tour - Live from Melbourne DVD. The vocals from the VP180 were smooth and lifelike. I never once felt like I was straining to hear the singer over the music, it was just a nice blend. The front soundstage was very even with my M80v2's pounding out the bass and the VP180 was able to match them for every note, it was seemless multichannel music. The VP150 was no slouch and neither was the diminuitive M2, both were able to hold there own but did sound as though the 40hz crossover was causing some resonance. I adjusteed the crossover to 80 and this helped them clean up their music presentation, so much so that I was hard pressed to hear any real differences other than the center appeared thin in sound compared to the L/R and from what I could remember from the VP180. With the VP150 or M2 the center stage was slightly less dynamic/shallow/recessed from the rest of the system without that exrta bass fortifying it's presence. This was not surprising considering the lack of drivers and cabinet size of the M2/VP150.

I next moved to Lord of the Rings- FOTR. This is where the VP180 really hit home. During the Fireworks scene the extra punch from the center channel was quite noticeable and was lacking while watching the same scene with the VP150 or the M2. There were many other scenes that had much more impact with the VP180 compared to the smaller M2/VP150, scenes that I never really considered being of importance, such as when the ring falls out of Bilbo's hand and hits the floor or when Gandalf bends down to retrieve the ring and the eye quickly flashes into scene.

I moved onto U-571 to see how all the whispers would sound amongst the trio. They all proved to be great performers but during the intial boarding of the U-boat the gunfire was again more visceral, impactful with the VP180, the VP150 and M2 were much weaker in comparison. The depth charge scenes were also much more impressive with the VP180 compared to the smaller centers, again no surprises here.

I tried for some off axis listening and the VP180 just like the VP150 or any other horizontally designed speaker does not offer great off axis listening. It still sounds good just softer than sweetspot or near sweetspot listening. In my room the seat farthest to the right is 25-30 deg. off axis and in this spot just as with the VP150 or even my VP100 you lose quite abit of volume 2-3 even 4 db on some material; it is quite noticeable. The M2 on the other hand only drops barely a db. I checked this with various program material, my mains disconnected and the max setting on the RS, not very scientific but neither is this whole review So YYMV.

All in all the VP180, IMO, is truly the center channel(beside the obvious choice of a third M80 or an M60) for a complete front soundstage for the M60/M80(I heard it at Bryan's with his M60's) providng you have room and can afford it. I would not hesitate at recommending the smaller speakers either but there is a difference. I would suggest to those that can't afford the VP180 right away purchase the M2 or VP150 and then repurpose those once you can get your hands on the VP180.

Hmmm. I wonder how an M2 mounted high above the TV to spread out the sound and the VP180 to fill in the soundstage would be.................

Great review, Jason. Thank you very much.

Jason, thanks for the time and effort; it's a great review as Tom said.

Hey Jay. Did you just do a single M2 or dual? Dual above and below would be ideal I think.

So, there is a trade off between the M2 and VP180. If you have lots of seating and it is used a lot, the Dual M2 would be a better choice for off axis listening. If it is only 2 or 3 seats, then the VP180 would be the better choice??

As good as BobKay's?

Jay - nice review of the speakers! I was going to PM you to see how it was going but your post answers my questions. I guess you are recommending I keep the VP180! Question is - will I be able to get it back from you?

So did your time with the M2 and VP180 convince you of an upgrade in the future? If so, would you go with the M2 or the VP180?

I'll PM you to see when we can hook up to swap speakers. Would it be possible to borrow that Eagles DVD? I know you've used that quite a bit as a multichannel music demo and I don't have any discrete multichannel music discs.

Bryan

Thanks guys.

Bryan, I think you will really like the 180 even more once you get a chance to relax and let it do it's thing. I can loan that DVD to you. I bought it specially for this type of testing, it really does have great surround mixing. I want to try the dual center idea, VP180 and M2. I have that plant shelf above my TV which I might try to set the M2 on tomorrow and give it a listen. I also found the owner's manual for the SPL meter you have, I will try to remember to give it to you.


Fred, it was just a single M2 below. A dual M2 would not help with lowering the frequncy range of playback for that extra punchy sound the VP180 brought to the table.

It appears that as long as the seating arrangement is contained within the outer most points of the magic triangle the VP180 works very, very well. Once you move outside those points the M2 is the better choice due to it's greater horizontal dispersion.

I have that seat that is used quite often at/outside the right main which means I would like to use the M2 to give that seat better SQ, but the dilemma is, I really really like the full range sound the VP180 offers. I will post back about my M2/VP180 scenario tomorrow, I think I have time to try it out, stay tuned.............

Hello,
What about using a M22 for the center vs a M2?

Thank you,
Tony

Personally, I would stick with the VP180 on its own. The problem with the dual configuration that you describe(M2 & VP180) is that because of the difference in SPL efficiency ratings between the two speakers, there very well could be a slight difference in volume levels(VP180 will probably be louder) which kind of defeats the whole purpose of this particular set-up. I faced that issue when trying an M2 with the VP150 which was considerably louder so I scrapped the experiment.

The only way you can deal with that, of course, is by having them driven by separate amps or a switch where you could control the volume of at least one of the speakers to obtain balance.

Now we're going to be reviewing reviews.

Of course, that will lead to reviewing reviews of reviews...

Of course, THAT will then lead to......

drinking.

Jakewash,

Did you have a sub on when you were doing comparisons? I'm just wondering what the difference is with a sub in the picture (and maybe you did have this).

Jason, nice review. This VP180 looks very nice on you stand

Nick, I did have my PB13 Ultra on while listening.

Casey, thanks for bringing up the sensitivity difference. I had considered it, but dismissed it as I was thinking about only better SQ on the outer seats so the M2 would be able to reach those areas with better SPL than the VP180 was doing, however it might be a wash as the difference in sensitivity is about the same as the drop in SPL at that seat. But as you said running the center channel M2 through a seperate amp with volume control(pro amp) would solve this problem quite nicely. I still might try this today we will see, the chores for the day are already starting to pile up, more snow arrived overnight

Thanks Bruno, I think it is a very nice fit, much better than the VP150

One other test I had thought of doing was stand the VP180 up on end and try it as another M80.

Good read, thanks Jason.

Wasn't Mike (micheal_d) considering two 180s for above and below his screen?

That's the review I'm curious about.

Michael?

Jay,

I agree that I'll be more than happy with the VP180 replacing my VP150. I've come to the conclusion that the perceived issues I was having with it were related to the source material and the improved presentation of it with my new Audyssey-enabled receiver. Having run the VP150 for a week in its stead I've come to appreciate and understand the differences Audyssey has done in my room and that the VP150 is exhibiting the same characteristics the VP180 was demonstrating with Audyssey.

I do have to say that my VP150 sounds better with Audyssey now that I've gotten used to it and have educated myself on what I should be hearing. It's much better now with cable TV as it appears Audyssey has tamed some of the over-emphasized sibilance. Now I get a truer sense of the source material with Audyssey in place. So I'm looking forward to putting more time in with the VP180 in the place of the VP150.

BTW - having seen the VP180, in person, at your house I can say it looks very good. Looking at the pictueres you posted I have to say that when I was at your place I never noticed the Axiom plaque on the wall above your TV. Nice!

Did you try different crossovers with the VP180? Or only 40 Hz? Which do you prefer?

When you are done with the center channel experiments we should experiment with my surround channels - trying them up higher and on the back wall. Could be interesting...

Bryan

I just left the VP180 at 40 hz as that is where the mains are set to. This way I was assured of the best seemless front soundstage I could hope for, at least that was my thought. Not sure how much of a difference a 60hz setting with the center would detract from the front sound, most likely not much.

[quote=MarkSJohnsonNow we're going to be reviewing reviews.

Of course, that will lead to reviewing reviews of reviews...

Of course, THAT will then lead to......

drinking. [/quote]
I vote for the readers digest version. Skip directly to the drinking...

Crap! My seating is all inside the triangle. Now I can't wrap myself in the moral superiority of knowing that my horizontal centers are the best solution for my situation.

Thanks for the great comparison Jason. By any chance did you or can you stand the VP180 on end to see how the effects the horizontal dispersion. It would be nice if the speaker worker equally or nearly as well in either orientation in blending with the M80s but had the flexibility of both. That could make it superior to even having an M80 center.

I thought about it, but my room is too small. I cut out some cardboard boxes to size and didn't like the way they looked. I'm pretty happy with my current center channel arrangement anyway. Saving my pennies for a different type of toy right now too.

Dean, as I noted in a previous post, I do intend to try the VP180 on end and compare it this way, hopefully tomorrow before I have to give this baby back to its rightful owner.

Thanks, I missed that comment earlier. I’ve been waiting for someone to do a vertical test since this thing came out. I’m still entertaining the idea of having one mounted on a stand so I can orient it either way depending on if I’m watching a movie vs. music or alone vs. side seats filled.

OK, I tried the VP180 in the vertical position against an M80v2. I simply placed both speakers in front of my AV unit and made changes to the Denon so I had a mono signal(what a PITA). I listened to various types of music and I found the M80 to have a wider soundstage, that is to say the music didn't seem to come from just the speaker while the VP180 had a similar effect but not as much. I suspect this is due to the different driver configuration. I think the differences would be greatly diminished once played with a left and right speaker for multichannel duties but YMMV.

Tony, sorry I forgot to respond to your question about an M22 center vs the M2. IMO there is little difference. The M22 will allow a 60hz crossover if so desired and but it really doesn't have the size to handle those frequencies with any real authority, not like the VP180 or floorstanders do. If you have bookshelf speakers for L/R then by all means run the same speaker across the front as it will yield a truly seemless soundstage, if the M22 is too tall then the M2 will fill in nearly perfectly, I doubt most would ever notice any difference.

I'm pretty sure Ian told us that there are different crossovers in the M80 and VP180 to deal with changes in baffle-step correction due to the cabinet orientation. So, I'd expect them to sound different, and not just because of the driver configuration.

Ah yes, I forgot about the crossover differences as well, good point.

See the interview with him in HTR.

Just thought of a possible way to run VP180 with M2's. Run dual M2's above, aligned vertically above the display and then the VP180 below. The dual M2's present a 4 ohm load and should play a little louder to better match the VP180 ouput. I think this would yield pretty good results for a wider listening area.

Is that really necessary with the VP180?

I wonder how a new 180 would fair with my 80v2's of a few years old? Can't afford to upgrade my entire system again, arggg.

From what we've heard, pretty well...

Wonder if I could make a VP180 fit on top of a 27" CRT without my wife noticing...

Only if you have a wide/odd shaped listening area as the 180 still has the same horizontal dispersion problem all 'center' cahnnel speakers have. In my room I have one seating position that rests at, to slightly outside the main listening triangle and the 180 is a few db lower there, quite noticeable and somewhat irritating while trying to listen to softer dialogue. The M2 reached that area with the same DB level as I noted seated directly in front, so yes this would be desireable for better SQ at all litening positions.

The other option is to run an M60/M80 as a center, but we know many can't do this for one reason or another. I tried to get my wife to let me at least run an M60 but she thought the TV would be too high so I am left with this above and below option to hit all seating positions in my room and still achieve that dynamic range from the center that the VP180 brings to the system.

Jason,

So are you saying the VP180 is the better speaker from a dynamics perspective whereas the M2 is better for ensuring better dispersion across all seats?

I PM'ed you but maybe I'll post it here as well. For my arrangement where I'm placing the speaker directly above my TV and all of my seating is withing the "golden" triangle, would you recommend a single M2 or a single VP180? You've heard the VP180 in my room but not the M2.

I've obviously purchased the VP180 already and my 30 day period just expired yesterday. But I can physically run an M2 above my TV since I don't have any height restrictions. But I do have a weight restriction and the VP180 is right at the edge of what my shelf can hold. I've reinforced it and it seems to bear the weight as it didn't seem to have any issues for the 2 weeks it was placed on the shelf.

Aesthetically I think the VP180 will look better as it fills the space and looks quite imposing Do you think the dynamics and lower extension of the VP180 outweigh it's dispersion issues if all seats are within the speaker triangle? Or would an M2 be the better choice?

Anyone else have an opinion?

Bryan

In your room the 180 should be all you need.

And really in my room other than that one seat, the 180 works fantastic. I know I will get a 180. I doubt I will ever run the dual M2 scenario above my TV to reach that single listening postion unless I have an amp with volume control to run the centers of off. I am pretty sure my wife would veto any dual configuration above the TV. I wonder if we could talk Ian into producing a 4 ohm M2 just for this purpose?

Yes Bryan, that is what Jason is saying. It’s also why he and I both believe an M80 or M60 center is superior to a VP180 if you have seating that is far off center. I think that using M2s above and a VP180 below is an interesting idea to get the best of both designs when not able to use a tower center.

IMO if you are not hearing any horizontal dispersion related issues like a drop in SPL when moving off center then unless you have an exceptionally tall screen I don’t think you would benefit from an over under M2/VP180 arrangement and would just stick to the VP180. The advantage of over/under for a very large screen is it will center most of the center channel information (except for the bass which is less directional anyway) on the screen. IMO it gives you a more “wall-of-sound” effect that is more movie theater like than just putting speakers below a screen. A similar but not as tall “wall-of-sound” can be achieved by using an AT screen and putting the speakers behind it.

If I wasn't working on my HT in the downstairs room, I'd have a VP180 in-cabinet version on-order right now, to put below my TV, replacing the on-in wall VP100. I think it would go really good with my 2 sets of vertically aligned M22's. (See link on signature line)

Order it now so you can get used to the install process and enjoy it's great sound now while you wait for the funds to replenish for the HT room .

Nah. Tempting, but it'll just put me $700 behind my HT project, and it has a long ways to go. Tonight, I'm tearing out paneling flanking the fireplace and bagging up old blown-in insulation. Fun-fun. When I did the wall on the opposite side of the room on Sunday, My gloves and black coat were white with all of the dust. They cleaned up good in the washer, though.

That reminds me, I need to stop and buy more face mask breathing filters.