Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Amp power comparison

Cgilker

yes, I agree with that. I hear that Le Amp by nOrh, rated at 100wpc, sounds stronger than most regular integrateds. I just might buy those, or equivalents, when I have thousands of dollars lying around (yeah, right...) for an audio upgrade

Ravi, I'm a bit curious about your impression of the "small" setting, since, if anything, the performance at 40-80hz should be a bit better with the sub handling more of it. When you did that did you turn the crossover on the sub all the way up so as to minimize interference with the 80hz crossover on the receiver?

I always have the crossover set to the maximum so it doesn't interfere with the setting.

having two speakers set at small and a sub sounds just fine in terms of getting the whole range of sound, but I much prefer the soundstage and imaging of just two speakers, so to get as much bass as possible, i set them to large. For just two channel listening, I likely would have been better off with M60's or M80's, but they are way over my budget. Perhaps next year I will buy a pair of towers, move the M22's to the back, and sell my M3's.

Hi all,

Lots of good advice from JohnK about the relationship of perceived loudness levels and the huge increase in electrical watts required to cause a small subjective increase in loudness.

There is no universal standard for measuring dynamic headroom. When it is quoted or measured, it's in milliseconds (several thousandths of a second) which is sort of relevant, but it's better to try and judge an amp's output capabilities by the robustness of its power supply: How big are the storage capacitors, and the power transformer?

Look through the vent holes on the top for the round capacitors (usually near the transformer). If they're big and fat--the size of a normal soup can (unlikely in all but a few expensive receivers)--and the transfomer is large and heavy, you can assume the receiver's power supply is robust and able to supply sudden demands for output power (an explosion in a HT war move, for example). The capacitors store electrical energy. If they're puny, and an explosion in a movie comes along, the power supply may "sag" and be unable to meet the demands of the output stage, causing distortion.

You can even judge power-supply quality by the physical weight of the receiver (assuming the manufacturer didn't hide a brick inside to trick naive consumers...ha, ha).

It's too complex and long-winded to go into here, but I'm preparing an article on power output standards in multichannel HT receivers. Output for most brands is quoted, at best, in the stereo mode, with only two channels driven. When five channels are driven, the power output often is dramatically reduced, to a fraction of its stereo capabilities. And it's often quoted at just one frequency--1 kHz, rather than over the full frequency range of hearing (20 Hz - 20 kHz). All this is very misleading and confusing for consumers. Standards have sharply declined, partly because manufacturers are trying to jam five or more power amps onto one chassis and sell it at $500 or less while giving the impression that the receiver can output 5 channels at 80 or 100 watts per channel simultaneously. And it can't.

Well, that ought to stir things up....you'll read more when my separate web site, The AudioLofft Report, gets up and running.

Regards,

In reply to:

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However, I am not a fan of the way it sounds on small because my receiver cuts off at 80, whereas the M22's can play perfectly down to 50, and somewhat down to 40.

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Hmm, Axiom's specs say that the -3db point for the M22 is 60Hz, and that it's down 9db at 50Hz. I would think an 80Hz crossover would be just right. Keep in mind the crossover point is not a "brick-wall"; your M22 would still be getting some bass below 80hz, it will just be rolled off as you get lower. A common guideline is that a speaker should be capable of producing at least some bass a full octave below the crossover point (ie 40Hz). If you don't like the sound when using the crossover, it may mean that you need to better integrate/calibrate the sub for your system, or it could be that your sub produces too much distortion.

Hey Alan,

OK, can you give us an idea as to what the launch date is for THE AUDIOLOFFT REPORT? While I have your ear or eyes , what is your impression of the NAD T761?

Thanks,

CAV104

Jim,

I'm not Alan, but I wouldn't buy NAD over Denon.. NAD is overpriced, if you ask me. There's also the Outlaw 1050 out there, it's a 6.1, i'm sure you've heard of it.

If you have been reading about me thinking my Denon didn't sound too good at loud volumes, well.. I set all my speakers back to small, and fiddled with placement, as well as sub placement, and it sounds much better. I'm also using a pair of your cables aged for 13 months in an oak filled barrel with ginseng root and a goat tripe. They're absolutely EXQUISITE if you add a pinch of salt and a squirt of lemon from the south east of India.

For the second time today i agree with RAvi. NAD used to be quite good but now i find they are overpriced and running on reputation.
I looked at the Outlaws and was impressed but the Onkyo DS797 had me equally impressed, came highly recommended and i got it for an absolute steal from a recommended local vendor who did his buddy a favor and 'helped' me with the price.
You would never believe just how much those electronics get marked up upon resale!!

chesseroo

I'm glad you agree with me..

it's true, these audio electronics get marked up substantially, because poeple will buy them.

The Denon 1602 MSRP is 770$ CAN. The store where I buy my electronics (Dumoulin / Audiotronic) had it on sale for 648$. I went to one store, I tried talking the guy down, he laughed at me and said there's NO WAY they can make a profit and sell it 648, so he refused to lower his price.. Then I went to Dumoulin, and I talked the guy down to 539$!!! With it I bought their 5 year warranty with yearly checkups / cleaning, and with tax (which is murder in Quebec), the total was 699.99$
that's 70$ less than the MSRP. If I would have paid 770 plus 75$ for the extended warranty plus tax it would have cost 973$. And I bet they STILL made a good profit off me.

The Onkyo 797 has a US MSRP at $1000 which is of course about $1650 Cdn. THe best price i found in canada so far was $1899!!
I got the receiver for $1500 but i can't say where although he is an authorized dealer. He still made a bit of cash off me but i'm sure not alot.
I could have got one via ebay brand new for about $1650-1700 after tax and customs.
Even this whole cable issue. I talked to a guy about getting 12ga cable for a buck a foot and he sold me his 10ga for the same even though it was listed at $1.50.
Since when do people get 33% off the retail price when its not at Walmart?
Ya, serious markup. I can't imagine how people pay 8 bucks a foot for cable when it probly costs about ten cents a foot to make.
I guess it must be all that R&D cuz i know for sure i'm THRILLED with the Axiom price:performance:quality!!